Christian Jorgensen

[John McCrea]

Hello everybody,
I would really like some help in trying to find a Christian Jorgensen born about 1871 his father was Ferdinand Jorgensen and mother Andrea Margrete Ancker, and from what I can understand from Danish census records kindly sent to me by someone on the Ancestry.co.uk web site. The family come from Farnum, Frederiksborg.
Christian (above) married 2 times, his 2 marriage I have him married to a Sofia Maria Peterson, also from Denmark but married here in the UK, in Durham.
I can't trace any record of Christians first marriage to a Clara Augusta ( unknown maidan name) in the UK so I can only hope this happened in Denmark.
I know that Clara died in child birth and their son also Christian died a few day after his mother in 1905 in Durham England and are buried within the same grave, along with Christian (the father and husband and also his second wife Sofia.
I know that this looks confusing, but I can only hope that somebody in Denmark can help me with these problems.
Just one more thing before I close.
On Christians second marriage certificate (1906) it says that Sofia Maria Petersen's father was a "hotel owner" his name was Hans Petersen.
Can I find any information out about him or the hotel that he owned?

Very many thanks for your help.

John McCrea.

[Inger Toudal]

Here's the family in the 1880 census for Farum parish, Frederiksborg county, found at http://ddd.dda.dk/dddform_uk.asp:

Frederiksborg, Ølstykke, Farum, Farum, Et Hus, 7, FT-1880, C7869
Name:    Age:    Marital status:      Position in household:      Occupation:      Birth place:
Lars Jørgensen  72  Enkemand  Husfader, Pensioneret Skovfoged [widower, head of household, retired forester]  Esbønderup Sogn Kronborg Amt
Andrea Margrethe Jørgensen F. Anker   32    Enke   Husbestyrerinde   [widow, housekeeper]   Hasle Bornholm
Laurits Andreas Jørgensen   7    Ugift   Hendes Barn      Farum Sogn Frederiksborg Amt
Ane Kristine Clarine Jørgensen   5    Ugift   Hendes Barn      Farum Sogn Frederiksborg Amt
Alfrida Marie Jiliane Jørgensen   2    Ugift   Hendes Barn      Farum Sogn Frederiksborg Amt
Laura Andrea Laurine Jørgensen   under et aar    Ugift   Hendes Barn      Farum Sogn Frederiksborg Amt

Wheelwright Jens Ferdinand Jørgensen died 30 Aug. 1879, at the age og 37 y 9 m. The info is from
http://www.sa.dk/content/dk/ao-forside/find_kirkeboger:
Frederiksborg, Ølstykke, Farum 1860-1880, opslag (image) 267, no 9.

Christian Jørgensen was born 24 Nov. 1870 (same churchbook, opslag 24, no 13). But where is he at the time of the 1880 census? His mother remarried:

Frederiksborg, Ølstykke, Farum, Farum, et Hus, 11 F. 1, FT-1890, C4406
Name:    Age:    Marital status:      Position in household:      Occupation:      Birth place:
Søren Jensen   34    Gift   Husfader   Forstadspirant   Agebo
Andrea Magrethe Jensen   42    Gift   Husmoder      Hasle Bornholm
Laura Andrea Louise Jørgensen   10    Ugift   Barn      Farum
Charl Alfred Jensen   5    Ugift   Barn      Farum

Best regards,
Inger Toudal

[Inger Toudal]

I managed to find the father in the 1860 census:

København, København (Staden), Frimand Kvarter, St. Helliggejstræde No. 8 Matr. 163, Baghuset, Stuen b, 1046, FT-1860, D6340
Name:    Age:    Marital status:      Position in household:      Occupation:      Birth place:
Waldemar Gerner   31    Ugift   Karethmager      Kbhv
Ferdinandt Jørgensen   17    Ugift   Hjulmagerlærling   [unmarried wheelwright apprentice]   Farum
Bertel Smidt   16    Ugift   Hjulmagerlærling      Geffle

But no trace of Christian Jørgensen in the 1880 and 1890 censuses for Frederiksborg, Copenhagen, and Roskilde counties. I even checked Bornholm, where his mother was born. One of the problems in tracing Christian is that FT-1880 is the last census that has been completely transcribed and indexed. According to http://www.dis-danmark.dk/kipkort/fronta-e.php FT-1890 for Frederiksborg and Bornholm counties should be fully indexed.

To find him in the levy rolls (not online yet), you have to know where he was residing the year he turned 18. You can read more about Danish genealogical records at https://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/Denmark

Frederiksborg, Ølstykke, Farum, Farum mark, huus, 76, FT-1845, C2813
Name:    Age:    Marital status:      Position in household:      Occupation:      Birth place:
Lars Jørgensen   38    Gift      Kongelig skovfoged   Nøddebo, Frederiksborg amt
Clarie Beathe Smith   39    Gift      hans kone   Kjøbenhavn
Carl Heinrik Jørgensen   11    Ugift      deres søn   Kjøbenhavn
Inger Kirstine Jørgensdatter   7    Ugift      deres datter   Her i sognet
Jens Ferdinand Jørgensen   4    Ugift      deres søn   Her i sognet
Hansine Rasmusdatter   12    Ugift      Plejedatter   Kjøbenhavn
Ane Kirstine Smith   66    Enke      Svigermoder   Helsingør
Anders Jensen   19    Ugift      Tjenestefolk   Uggeløse, Frederiksborg amt
Ane Marie Frederiksdatter   24    Ugift      Tjenestefolk   Wærløse

Bornholm, Nørre, Hasle Købstad, , 83a, 166, FT-1850, C3272
Name:    Age:    Marital status:      Position in household:      Occupation:      Birth place:
Anders Peter Anker   48    Gift      Søemand, Huusfader [sailor, head of household]   Gudhjem
Stine Magrethe Juul   40    Gift      hans Kone   Hasle
Juliane Helene Anker   12          hans Datter   Gudhjem
Maria Kristine Anker   6          hans Datter   Hasle
Andrea Magrethe Anker   3          hans Datter   Hasle
Frida Hansine Anker   1          hans Datter   Hasle

Inger T.

[Homer Ficken]

But no trace of Christian Jørgensen in the 1880 and 1890 censuses for Frederiksborg, Copenhagen, and Roskilde counties. I even checked Bornholm, where his mother was born. One of the problems in tracing Christian is that FT-1880 is the last census that has been completely transcribed and indexed. According to http://www.dis-danmark.dk/kipkort/fronta-e.php FT-1890 for Frederiksborg and Bornholm counties should be fully indexed.


Inger T.

Maybe this is Christian 1880, if the foster parents listed wrong birthplace?   

København, Smørum, Glostrup, Hvessinge, , et Hus, 27, FT-1880
Name: Age: Marital status: Occupation in household: Occupation: Birth place:
Lars Nielsen 33  Gift Husfader. Arbeider i Agerbrug  Sværdborg, Præstø Amt
Karen Pedersen 27  Gift *hans Hustru  Herstedøster, Kjøbenhavns Amt
Johanne Nielsen under 1 Aar  Ugift Datter  Hvessinge
Christian Jørgensen 9  Ugift Pleiebarn  Kjøbenhavn

[John McCrea]

Dear Inger Toudal,

Very many thanks for the information that you have sent me with regards Christian and his family.
Am I correct in saying that Ferdinand only had 1 sister listed, and mother died before this census?
Also on the 1845, there are a few different names listed "Rasmisdatter" and some others, can you tell me who they are?
The name Jensen, this is Christian's mothers 2nd marriage? Can you tell me what Soren Jensens occupation was on this census?

Sorry to be a bother to you.

Best wishes.

John McCrea

[Inger Toudal]

I think you're right, Homer. It may very well be the right Christian. I couldn't find the confirmation [at the age of 14] of this Christian Jørgensen in Glostrup, though, whether born in Farum or Copenhagen.

Jens Ferdinand had an older brother Carl Henrik and a sister Inger Kirstine. His mother was called Klarine Beathe Smith. The family is here in the 1850 and 1855 censuses:

Frederiksborg, Ølstykke, Ganløse, Ganløse Sogn, Ganløse, 45, FT-1850, C5430
Name:    Age:    Marital status:      Position in household:      Occupation:      Birth place:
Lars Jørgensen   49    Gift      Skovfoged, husfader   Nøddebo Sogn
Klarim Beathe Jørgensen   44    Gift      Hans Hustru   København
Inger Kirstine Jørgensen   12    Ugift      Deres barn   Farum Sogn
Jens Ferdinand Jørgensen   9    Ugift      Deres barn   Farum Sogn
Ane Kirstine Schmidt   70    Enke      Husfaderens svigermor   Helsingør
Sophie Strømsteen   32    Ugift      Plejebarn   Sverige
Dorthea Christophersdatter   21    Ugift      Tjenestefolk   Lynge Sogn
Jens Hansen   21    Ugift      Tjenestefolk   Gørløse

Frederiksborg, Ølstykke, Ganløse, Gandløse, en Skovfogedbolig, 10, FT-1855, C6335
Name:    Age:    Marital status:      Position in household:      Occupation:      Birth place:
Lars Jørgensen   48    Gift   Skovfoged Huusfader      Esbønderup S. Frb. Amt
Klarine Beate Schmidt   49    Gift   Hans Kone      Kjøbenhavn
Inger Christine Jørgensen   17    Ugift   Deres Barn      Farum S. Frb. Amt
Jens Ferdinand Jørgensen   13    Ugift   Deres Barn      Farum S. Frb. Amt
Ane Kirstine Schmidt   75    Enke   Huusfaderens Svigermoder der af ham forsørges      Tikjøb S. Frb. Amt
Hans Andersen   16    Ugift   Tjenestefolk      Her i Sognet
Marie Mortensen   22    Ugift   Tjenestefolk      Uggeløse S. Frb. Amt
Ane Marie Nielsen   20    Ugift   Tjenestefolk      Kjøbenhavn

Husfader = head of household
Hustru / Kone = wife
Husmoder = housewife
Deres barn = their child
Plejebarn = foster child
Plejedatter = foster daughter
Plejesøn = foster son
Svigermoder = mother-in-law
Tjenestefolk = servants

For further vocabulary, please refer to https://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/Danish_Word_List

Correct, John - the surname Jensen in FT-1890 is Christian's mother's 2nd marriage. Her husband Søren Jensen is forstaspirant. I think it's the same as skovfogedaspirant, i.e. somebody who has passed the forester exam, but does not yet have the rank of forester.

What was Christian Jorgensen's trade in the UK?

Inger T.

[Inger Toudal]

Hi John,

I forgot to answer one of your questions: Jens Ferdinand's mother died before the 1880 census.

Inger T.

[John McCrea]

Hello Inger,

Many thanks again for the information, Christian Jorgensen was in the Merchant Navy and was a ships engineer also later (manager) and a marine consulting engineer.
He died in 1918.
Sorry to ask even more, but did you manage to find a marriage for a Christian and first wife Clara Augusta, they must have married late 1800's as Clara died in 1905 in Durham UK.

Many many thanks.

John.

[John McCrea]

Hi John,

I forgot to answer one of your questions: Jens Ferdinand's mother died before the 1880 census.

Inger T.

Hi, Inger.

I'm not sure if you got my last message or not, or it may be my fault for doing something wrong.

Best wishes

John.

[Inger Toudal]

Hi John,

Finding the marriage of Christian Jørgensen and Clara Augusta without knowing their residence at the time, is like finding a needle in a haystack.

If Christian was in the Danish merchant navy, you might be able to find info about him that way, but I'm not familiar with those records

How sure are you that this is the right Christian Jørgensen?

As I understand from the ancestry board, he's a likely candidate, based on his age and his father being Ferdinand Jørgensen:

I do have Christian Jorgensen and Sofia Maria Petersen marriage certificate, 4th June 1906, South Sheilds, he was 35 and she was 17 years old... he was a widow, and profession, Ship Repairer (Master) his father, Ferdinand Jorgensen (Deceased) and was a Joiner (I think)
Sofia's father also,(Deceased)was Hans Petersen, and was a hotel owner.

http://boards.ancestry.com/localities.britisles.england.dur.general/14910.1.1/mb.ashx

http://boards.ancestry.com/localities.scan-balt.denmark.general/9659.1/mb.ashx

Best regards,
Inger T.

[John McCrea]

Hello Inger,
Please forgive me for being a problem to you and asking about the marriage of Christian Jorgensen and Clara Augusta. I do understand that it can be a problem when trying to search for a marriage when a location is not known. But this information I just don't have like Clara's maiden name.
The marriage of Christian Jorgensen to Sofia Maria Petersen in Durham, South Shields in 1905 is the correct one and I have the marriage certificate.
But the first marriage is not listed on Ancestry.co.uk, although I am a full member, I am not a worldwide member so I can't look at Danish records on this site.
Can you advise me where I can look for this first marriage record? Even with a area unknown or maiden name unknown?

Very many thanks Inger,

John.

[Inger Toudal]

Hi John,

I really don't know where to look for the marriage. Do you have any idea when Christian Jorgensen settled in the UK? How old was his wife Clara Augusta in 1905?

I found out that Christian's grandfather Lars Jørgensen died 77 years old on 4 Aug. 1884 (Farum 1881-1891, opslag [image] 104, No 8 ).

I also found his probate at www.sa.dk/content/dk/ao-forside/find_skifter, Embede: Frederiksborg birk, Skifteprotokol for udsognene 1883 - 1887, opslag 37:

Lars Jørgensen's heirs are Andrea Margrethe Jensen's 4 minor children, and his daughter's daughter Louise Svendsen, 24 years old, residing at Øster Farimagsgade 7 in Copenhagen. Her father is school teacher Svendsen. (I think the probate process continues, but I didn't look for further records.)

Christian Jørgensen's sister Alfrida Marie Juliane died 7 years old on 21 June 1884 (Farum 1881-1891, opslag 119, No 5). She is mentioned in the above mentioned Skifteprotokol, opslag 30. There's a reference to her father's probate 25 April 1882.

Frederiksborg Birk, Skifteprotokol for udsognene 1879 - 1883, opslag 130-131:

Christian Jørgensen and his 4 siblings are mentioned, but nothing about Christian's place of residence. His mother declares that she will take responibility for raising her 5 minor children.

I hope somebody with knowledge of the area can take over.

Best regards,
Inger T.

[John McCrea]

Hi Inger,

Many thanks again for the information, I really don't know when Christian and Augusta settled in the UK, I have just looked at the death record for Augusta and she was buried on 16th Sep 1905 aged 29. Their son Christian was buried 20th Sep 1905 a few days old.
Would there be a separate forum page that I would have to post a message asking for help with this marriage or just re-post on this page?

Again Inger very many thanks for all that you have done for me.

Best wishes

John.

[Inger Toudal]

Hi John,

I see you've started a new thread in this group. That's what I would have suggested, too. Hope somebody is able to help you in you search.

One line of finding out whether Christian Jørgensen born 1870 in Farum is the right person, would be to find the probate of his mother. As the censuses of Farum parish after 1890 are not indexed, this is a difficult and time consuming task.

After having looked at the probates of his father 1882 and grandfather 1884, I came to the conclusion that this Christian could very well have lived with his mother and grandfather, but was absent from home at the time of the 1880 census and hasn't been registered at whatever place he was. After all, his father had died only recently.

I didn't find his confirmation in Farum, but maybe he was confirmed in one of the neighbouring parishes. There are several, some of them in Copenhagen county, as you can see at the map http://www.dis-danmark.dk/kort/kort.htm, press Frederiksborg. In 1890 he may be at sea - or emigrated - and not registered in Denmark.

It bothers me that you on ancestry.com write "his father, Ferdinand Jorgensen (Deceased) and was a Joiner (I think)." Could you possibly be more specific about the trade of his father as registered in the marriage record.

Best regards,
Inger T.

[John McCrea]

Hi John,

I see you've started a new thread in this group. That's what I would have suggested, too. Hope somebody is able to help you in you search.

One line of finding out whether Christian Jørgensen born 1870 in Farum is the right person, would be to find the probate of his mother. As the censuses of Farum parish after 1890 are not indexed, this is a difficult and time consuming task.

After having looked at the probates of his father 1882 and grandfather 1884, I came to the conclusion that this Christian could very well have lived with his mother and grandfather, but was absent from home at the time of the 1880 census and hasn't been registered at whatever place he was. After all, his father had died only recently.

I didn't find his confirmation in Farum, but maybe he was confirmed in one of the neighbouring parishes. There are several, some of them in Copenhagen county, as you can see at the map http://www.dis-danmark.dk/kort/kort.htm, press Frederiksborg. In 1890 he may be at sea - or emigrated - and not registered in Denmark.

It bothers me that you on ancestry.com write "his father, Ferdinand Jorgensen (Deceased) and was a Joiner (I think)." Could you possibly be more specific about this.

Best regards,
Inger T.

Hi Inger,
Thanks for your reply, I am still not having much luck with trying to trace Christians first marriage to Clara Augusta.
All of the information that you have found to date I really do think that this is the correct family as all the dates seem to fit, and they match what records I have found in the South Shields, Durham area of the UK.

There is only limited information on marriage certificates here in the UK with regards to fathers occupations, both fathers are listed as deceased, Christians, father Ferdinand (deceased) and a joiner, I'm not sure if it means the same thing in Denmark? But Joiner here in the UK means someone who works with wood, makes furniture.
As for Sofia Maria, her father Hans Pertesen also (deceased) and he was listed as a hotel owner.
I would like to find out what sort of hotel this was, or if indeed it still stands today?

Thanks again Inger,

Regards

John.

[Inger Toudal]

Joiner is snedker in Danish. A wheelwright (hjulmager) also worked with wood.

This Christian Jørgensen was only 8 years old when his father died, so mayby he didn't remember exactly what his father's trade was - or possibly there was a translation problem.

Inger T.

[John McCrea]

Joiner is snedker in Danish. A wheelwright (hjulmager) also worked with wood.

This Christian Jørgensen was only 8 years old when his father died, so mayby he didn't remember exactly what his father's trade was - or possibly there was a translation problem.

Inger T.

Hello Inger,
Yes I do think you are correct with the fact that Christian may not have known the proper profession of his father, and since living in the UK at the time the person filling out the certificate put his or her own words down on the certificate.
I have had many problems like this with my Irish family tree, because many of my early relations could not read or write, so it was up to the registrar so spell their names as they thought it should be spelt.. So my surname of McCrea has been spelt...McRae, MaCrea, Macrea, MCrea. On some early certificates...Very confusing!!

Any information that you may gather I would be only to glad to receive.

Many thanks.

Best regards,

John.