Help in Deciphering/translating birth record

[Catherine Hall]

Hi all, I have been discussing an ancestor in another thread but  decided to start a new one because I want to try and catch as many opinions as possible. I have a screenshot of a birth record of my ancestor but I can't understand what is being said in the notes section. I would be most grateful for any further clues to where Thor (the father) originated from in Norway if the record has any hints to that.

here is the screen shot

http://www.flickr.com/photos/20909822@N04/8540595201/in/photostream

His name is Gunder Heinrich Gundersen, born 23 december 1835 in Slagelse , Soro, Denmark.

Father is Thor Gundersen, mother is Emilie Caroline Redel. The name is recorded as Gunnersen. it is the last section that I just can't make out, I can spot the word Norge, but not having an understanding of Danish I can't even begin to figure out the other words

Thanks in advance

[Eva Morfiadakis]

I, too, can't read it but it's something with permission to marry and that he was born in Norway. I doesn't say where in Norway he was born. Gunner and Gunder are synonyms.

Eva M

[Ralph Rasmussen]

Have you ferreted out the parent's marriage?

The note on Gunder's birth begins 'Note that the parents have married'.  Permission was contingent on several guarantors, since a complete record from Norway was unavailable.  But wherever they were married, there may be a notation on the father's birth and vaccination.

[Catherine Hall]

Thanks for the excellent hint. I managed to find their marriage in the church book and took a screen shot of it, here http://www.flickr.com/photos/20909822@N04/8542035199/

The marriage was in Taarnborg, Soro on 1 july 1836. I can't pick out any words in that that look like they might say where the father is from.

[Ralph Rasmussen]

Persistence pays.  The betrothal is in Tårnborg 1787-1814, opslag 229.

The bridegrooms confirmation was in Kragerø city, on the south coast of Norway on March 12, 1815.

The Norwegian records are similar to the Danish.  With an age and a city, a visit to Family Search may be the next step.

[Ralph Rasmussen]

Ouch!  The confirmands from the spring of 1815 are missing, i.e. not recorded, from both copies of the parish record for Kragerø in Telemarken.

Thore may have had a father who was also a gardner.  I don't see a 'best candidate' among the births cataloged by Family Search.

[Catherine Hall]

goodness! how did you manage to find that.

Are the other years around 1815 recorded? I will try and find the record you have and see if there are perhaps brothers or sisters. in my other thread someone found  a fredrik gundersen recorded in denmark,also from Norway and also a gardener and was born around 1875. There is no real evidence to suggest he may be related though

[Ralph Rasmussen]

The scanned records are here, under Telemarken and then Kragerø:

http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read

I may have time to pursue siblings, too.

[Catherine Hall]

Do you know what age they were generally confirmed? I checked 2 that I could find an age indicated and they both seemed to be 18 years. Was this a 'manhood' thing? just that I had two possible birth dates for thor, one was 1797, and the other one from a danish census in 1840 said he was 39, so would place his birth around 1800-1801. But if he was confirmed in 1815, and there is an age thing (18) with it then that would put him back into 1797 for birth.

Or am I overthinking this?

[Ralph Rasmussen]

Fourteen was the nominal minimum age for confirmation.  In some parishes the pastor got right after it and everyone who wasn't slow was aged 14-15, in other parishes it was something that had to be done before you could consider marriage, although that still usually meant less than age 19.

In a word, neither 1797 nor 1801 can easily be ruled out.

[Catherine Hall]

well I've had a headache inducing afternoon attempting to read loads of handwriting. I tried looking at birth records around the region from 1795 through to 1805 and didn't spot anything resembling Thor Gundersen or anything that looked like that name we have for his father, Gunder Gundersen.

I'm wondering if I can narrow down the year that Thor moved from Norway over to Denmark, so far I have sometime between 1815 and 1835. I checked the norway heritage passenger list site, but there is nothing for Thor. I read that Norway split from their union with Denmark in 1814, so would there have been some kind of passport control or recording of movements between the two

[Eva Morfiadakis]

Catherine,  the confirmed for Kragerø are there. Look in the klokkerbog 1814-1831. Use the link write Kragerø in the box prestegjeld.
I can't see pages missing p 244 is 1814 it says that something is missing but then comes p 245.
Eva M

[Inger Toudal]

Hi Catherine,

http://www.arkivverket.no/eng/content/view/full/629

Select Census 1801; select Telemark fylke and type First name: Thor, Last name: Gundersen

Folketelling 1801 for 0805P Porsgrunn prestegjeld

P.no.    H.no.    Name    Date of birth     Family position    Marital status    Occupation    
001    01    Gunder Olsen    40       Huusejer    Begge i 1ste ægteskab    Hammersmed svend    
002    01    Marthe Thorsdatter    40       Hans kone    Begge i 1ste ægteskab       
003    01    Thor Gundersen*    5       Deres børn          
004    01    Kirsten Maria Gundersdatter*    2       Deres børn

Residence (house/farm/property)
R.no.    Name    District    House no.    
0027    Porsgrund    Herre Verk    27             

Census district
D.no.    Name of census district    Local parish    Parish    Municipality / City    
003       Herre Verk                    Porsgrund    Porsgrund    Porsgrund


http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read

Select county: Telemark; select parish: Porsgrunn / Østre Porsgrunn.

Select 1764-1814; select Chronological list 1796, go to p. 213 topmost record.

Thor Gundersen was baptized 22nd Sunday after Trinity (23 Oct.) 1796 in Porsgrunn parish, Telemark county, Norway.

The date can be seen at the bottom of p. 212 - three children were baptized (döbt) 23 Oct. 1796.

That fits very nicely with his age 39 y at the marriage 1 July 1836  

Best regards,
Inger Toudal

[Catherine Hall]

I found that record, but I think I have been a bit confused by other peoples findings on Ancestry.com

I found someone elses research that linked Thor with a father named Gunder H gundersen, mother named Thora Helena.

that gunders father is noted as being Gunder Qvale and there are siblings by the name of grunde (b1730), joen (b1747), jon (b1749), ole (b1752), torbor (b1768), and gunder (b1771). What confused me about this family listing was the eldest was born in 1730, and the youngest  in 1771. that is quite a spectacular spread!

that would make sense then if it  Ole Gundersen b1752 ->  Gunder Olsen b1771 ->Thor Gundersen 1796/7

I have a question though about the naming of that family.

If gunder is son of Ole, wouldn't he call his first born Ole? or might he not if Ole was still alive at that time. in which case Thor is named for the maternal grandfather. Makes sense since Maria is Thorsdatter.

edit: I think the gunder born in 1771 doesn't fit time wise with the gunder from the 1801census. The gunder that Inger posted looks like it is probably the correct family. Dates fit and area works too. I also recall seeing a gunder olesen in the birth records but discounted it because I was looking for a gundersen so I will go back and take another look.

[Eva Morfiadakis]

If Gunder is not the eldest son of Ole I think he didn't have to name his son Ole. I see that Gunder is 40. There may a son Ole who doesn't live at home any more. Children in those day sometimes had to leave home early to earn their living.

Eva M

[Eva Morfiadakis]

006 01 Ole Gundersen 17  Smedde-dræng Ugivt

This boy is learning to become a blacksmith in Brevig sogn in Telemark. Born around 1784. He could be a brother of Thor's.

You have to look in the birth records of Porsgrnd and hope the family hasn't moved a lot.

Eva M

[Catherine Hall]

well that fits with Gunder Olsen being a blacksmith too. I will look into the birth records tomorrow, also checking if there might be older sisters in that gap as well. thanks again. I really feel like I have some positive leads on this one.

Good night!

[Inger Toudal]

Link to your other thread about Gunder Heinrich Gundersen b. 23 Dec. 1835 in Slagelse, and his ancestors:

https://www.slaegtogdata.dk/forum/index.php/topic,55047.0.html

- just to avoid helpers searching for info that's already known.

It's a pity that the confirmation of his father Thor Gundersen 13 March 1815 in Kragerø, Telemark, Norway has not been recorded in either the official parish register, or the copy. There are no pages missing, so it seems the vicar has been careless - or maybe the confirmation took place in Kragerø Church and was recorded in a nearby parish?

A transcription of Thor's birth record:

1796
Den 22de Søndag efter Trinit: .....
...... it: døbt i Westre Kirke fra
Herre Gunder Olsens og Marthe Thors Datters Barn: Thor. - Faddere Knud Thorsens
kone Karen Møller; Anund Olsens kone Anna Maria Olsdatter; Anders Olsen; Paul
Petersen og Niels Jensen.


About Gunder Heinrich's surname: After 1828, the father of a child born in Denmark could choose the child's surname, which had to be recorded in the parish register (please refer to http://nfi.ku.dk/publikationer/webpublikationer/ddsoefternavnetshistorie.pdf/, page 6). It could be a hereditary surname, a true patronymic, or a byname. If you take a look at the other boys on opslag 4 in Slagelse Skt Mikkel 1835-1846, you'll see that some get a hereditary surname, others a true patronymic.

In Gunder/Gunner Heinrich's birth record, I read the Note partly as follows:

det bemærkes, at ved-
staaende Forældre har
ønsket Ægteskabstillysning xxx
xxxxxx, xxxxx xxxxxx
ei xxxxxxx af Mangel
paa xxxxxxxxxx fra hans
Side, da han er født i Norge.

Roughly: The parents have expressed a wish for the banns of marriage to be published, [but this has] not [been granted],
because of the lack of [the necessary documents] on his part, as he is born in Norway.

Best regards,
Inger T.

[Inger Toudal]

Censuses from http://ddd.dda.dk/ddd_en.htm listing Thor Gundersen in Denmark:

Odense, Aasum, Nørre Lyndelse, Dømmestrup, et hus, 95, FT-1840, C7103
Name:    Age:    Marital status:      Position in household:      Occupation:
- - - - -   
Thor Gundersen   39    Gift      gartner   
Karoline Rudal   29    Gift      hans kone   
Henrik Gundersen   5    Ugift      barn   
Thora Gundersen   3    Ugift      barn   
Mariane Gundersen   1    Ugift      barn

Odense, Odense, Odense Købstad, Uden for Nørreport, Nr. 487 A, 1283, FT-1845, B1959
Name:    Age:    Marital status:      Position in household:      Occupation:      Birth place:
Ifor Gunnarsen   45    Gift      Gartner   Norge
Emilia   35    Gift      Hans Kone   Kjøbenhavn
Gunner   9    -      Deres Barn   Slagelse
Ifoza   8    -      Deres Barn   Slagelse
Hermann   5    -      Deres Barn   Odense
Emilie   3    -      Deres Barn   Odense

Odense, Odense, Odense Købstad, Odense Kiøbstad, Frue Kirkestræde no 709, , FT-1850, B5984
Name:    Age:    Marital status:      Position in household:      Occupation:      Birth place:
- - - - -
Thor Gundersen   51    Gift      gartner   Norge
Emilie født Rode   39    Gift      hans kone   Kjøbenhavn
Gunder Gundersen   15    Ugift      deres søn   Slagelse
Theresa Gundersen   13    Ugift      deres datter   Korsøer
Mariane Gundersen   11    Ugift      ' [deres datter]   Søbysøgaard
Emilie Gundersen   8    Ugift      ' [deres datter]   Odense
- - - - -

Odense, Odense, Odense Købstad, Odense Kjøbstad, Skulkenborg 113, forhuset ??, 1 F1, FT-1860, B0289
Name:    Age:    Marital status:      Position in household:      Occupation:      Birth place:
Fredr. Gundersen   64    Gift   gartner      Norge
Emilie født Cohne   48    Gift   hans kone      Kiøbenhavn
Thora Gundersen   23    Ugift   deres datter      Toreholm, Sjælland

- yes, it's him! Please refer to http://www.odensedatabasen.dk/:

År Måned Dag Begivenhed Kildetype Fornavn Efternavn Personnr.
1860 2 1 Folketælling Folketælling Fredr.?? [Thor] Gundersen 17961023001

Thora Helene Wilhelmine Gundersen was born 17 July 1837 at Taarnholm  
(Tårnborg, Slagelse, Sorø 1832-1840, opslag 88, no 15)

Best regards,
Inger T.

[Inger Toudal]

One more census:

Holbæk, Løve, Gørlev, , Aagaard Hovedgaard, , FT-1834, C1653
Name:    Age:    Marital status:      Position in household:      Occupation:      
Carl Emilius Greve af Moltke   60    Gift      Geheimeconferentsraad. Storkors af Dannbrogen og Dannebrogsmand. Herre til Aagaards Helsingegaards Godser.   
- - - - -   
Thor Gundersen   34    Ugift      Gartner
- - - - -

That's also Thor's residence at the birth of Gunder Heinrich in Dec. 1835.

Best regards,
Inger T.

[Catherine Hall]

Wow. Those names are really different for each entry, but I can see how they are all the right family.

So Hermann was possibly someone misreading Mariane. I had wondered why I wasn't finding anything more on Hermann. That makes sense to me now. Amazing how many variations on the names show up. And the ages tend to fluctuate a bit too