Julianne Frederikke Gronemann birth record

[Linda Michelle Thérèsa de Bodt Rosenland]

Hello,

I have located the birth record for Julianne Frederikke Gronemann in Rolsted, Asum, Odense, Denmark and I *think* the parents are Cristian Gronemann and Johanne Andreasen?

1801-1811
Rolsted (Rolfsted), Asum, Odense, Denmark
Opslag 50
Julianne Frederikke Gronemann
born 2 Oct 1809?

Is anyone able to translate the record for me?  Some of the witnesses appear to be Madam something.

Any help is appreciated.

[Linda Michelle Thérèsa de Bodt Rosenland]

As a follow up:

In the 1834 Census for Vejle, Bjerre, Skjold I locate what appears to be her family but the mother's last name does not seem like the same on in the birth record.

Vejle, Bjerre, Skjold, Schjolde Bye, Degnebolig, 2, FT-1834, C0528

Christian Frederich Gronneman 59 Gift  Skolelærer og Kirkesanger 
Johanne Ortmann 54 Gift  hans Kone 
Juliane Frederiche Gronnemann 25 Ugift  Deres Børn 
Georg Ludvig Gronnemann 10 Ugift  Deres Børn 
Laurs Pedersen 6 Ugift  Pleiebarn 
Karen Marie Jensdatter 15 Ugift  Tjenestepige

[Inger Buchard]

In the churchbook Rolsted I read
den 2den Octbr født og d. 25de Nov. public.
Sognedegnen i Rolfst. Christian Gronemans
og Kones Johanne Ortmans hjemmedøbt
Datters Daab n(omine) Juliane Frederiche
Fadderne/Witnesses vare:
Madam Ibsen i Fraugde
Madam Stegmann i Odense
Sognepræst Hr. Andresen i Sölling
Capellan Hr. Ortmann i Aaby
Forvalter Jansen paa Hellerup
Hr Stegmann i Odense
og Mølleren Hans Pouelsen i Rolst.
Moderen intr. s. D.

Hence the mother would be the same as in the census

Inger

[Linda Michelle Thérèsa de Bodt Rosenland]

Thanks Inger.

What is a little odd is that I found another birth record (opslag 61 same records) for Carl Vilhelm Gronnemann on 7 Feb 1811 and his parents appear to be V. Gronnemann and Karen Ortmann but when I go to the Skjolde records for 1815-1839 opslag 86 his confirmation lists his parents as Christian Frederich Gronnemann and Juliane Ortmann.

Isn't that a little strange?  I am thinking that maybe this is Christian Frederich's brother's son and something must have happened to the parents and so they essentially adopted their nephew.  I am still sifting through death records to see if I can find what happened to Carl Vilhelm's parents.

[Linda Michelle Thérèsa de Bodt Rosenland]

I have also come across more information in the Ronninge, Asum, Odense, Denmark parish records.

1781-1813
Opslag 375
Christian Gronnemann
8 May 1808

It looks like he joins the seminary and that he is replacing the recently deceased Andreas Schiotts who died 27 Apr 1808 in Ronninge.

I don't quite understand the entry for Christian as I have not come across something like that yet.

[Helmer Christiansen]

Christian Groneman was a "seminarist": A school teacher who had graduated from a seminarium (in Danish seminarium is a secular school of higher education that train teachers).

[Linda Michelle Thérèsa de Bodt Rosenland]

Christian Groneman was a "seminarist": A school teacher who had graduated from a seminarium (in Danish seminarium is a secular school of higher education that train teachers).

Oh, that is perfect.  In census records he lists himself as a school teacher so I think I have found him.  Thank you!

[Linda Michelle Thérèsa de Bodt Rosenland]

I am having trouble locating the birth place of her father.  I only know very little Danish so it gets confusing for me.

In 1787 Christian Frederick Gronnemann appears to be living with his uncle in Frederiksborg.

Frederiksborg, Lynge-Kronborg, Helsingør Købstad, , Jørgen Andersens Stræde 519, , FT-1787, C0897

Carl Wilhelm Gronnemand 38 Gift Huusbonde Stads Musicant 
Mette Marie Plelt?? 30 Gift Kone   
Carl Grønemand 10 Ugift Søn   
Catrine [Gronemand] 4 Ugift Datter   
Sophie [Gronemand] 2 Ugift Ditto [Datter]   
Christian Gronemand 14 Ugift Huusb. Broder Søn Discipl i Latinskeskole  so born about 1773
Aredelas?? Hvidt 19 Ugift Tiltagen Barn Musicanter Drenge 
Mads Bertelsen 20 Ugift Tienneste Folk Musicanter Drenge 
Bendt Halmstrøm 26 Ugift Tienneste Folk Musicanter Drenge 
Niels Baadstrøm 13 Ugift Tienneste Folk Musicanter Drenge 
Kirstine Nielsdatter 17 Ugift Tienneste Folk Tien. Pige 
Jørgen Zenhmejer 43 Ugift Indqvarterede Musqveterer ved Cronborgs Battl. 
Christian Qvasorche?? 43 Ugift Indqvarterede Musqveterer ved Cronborgs Battl. 
Henrich Buch 29 Ugift Indqvarterede Musqveterer ved Cronborgs Battl. 
Christian Røyder 29 Ugift Indqvarterede Musqveterer ved Cronborgs Battl. 
Christian Jacobsen 26 Gift Huusbonde Kiøbmand 
Catrine Helt 26 Gift Kone   
Inger Svendsdatter 22 Ugift  T. Pige 
Hans Stefansen 37 Ugift Huusbonde Gade Vogn Mand 
Peder Jensen 22 Ugift  Tien. Karl

In 1801 Christian is now living in Odense:
Odense, Odense, Odense Købstad, Odense Kiøbstad, Overgade, 27, FT-1801, B9037
Jacob Holm 34 Gift huusbonde smedemester 
Ellen Kirstine Krag 56 Gift hanskone   
Knud Knudsen 7 Ugift hendes søn   
Niels Jensen 25 Ugift tienestefolk smedesvende 
Hans Steffensen 23 Ugift tienestefolk smedesvende 
Christen Pedersen 28 Ugift tienestefolk smedesvende 
Anders Jensen 22 Ugift tienestefolk læredrenge 
Marthin Jensen 18 Ugift tienestefolk læredrenge 
Anne Nielsdatter 22 Ugift tienestefolk   
Maren Hansdatter 14 Ugift tienestefolk   
Christian Gronemann 27 Ugift logerende musikus so born about 1774

In 1840 he is living in Vejle.
Vejle, Bjerre, Skjold, Skjolde Bye, Degneboelig, 2, FT-1840, C8407
Christian Gronemann 65 Gift  Kirkesanger og Skolelærer  so born about 1775
Johanne Ortmann 60 Gift  hans Kone 
Juliane Gronemann 31 Ugift  Deres Datter 
J. Christian Andersen 4 Ugift  Pleiebørn 
Jacob Andersen 1 Ugift  Pleiebørn 
Johanne Jensdatter 16 Ugift  Tjenestepige

In 1845 he is still living in Vejle.

Vejle, Bjerre, Skjold, Skjold Bye, et Huus, 16, FT-1845, C0538
Jørgen Jensen 48 Gift  Huusmand Raarup 
Else Marie Andersdatter 67 Gift  Hans Kone I Sognet 
Anders Jensen 23 Ugift  Deres Søn som er Wæwer I Sognet 
Kristian Gronemann 70 Gift  Pensioneret Skolelærer Inderster Sjælland 
Johanne Gronemann 65 Gift  Hans Kone Inderster Langeland 

So I finally have a birth place but I do not understand what it means.  When I translate it says Inner Forester Zealand.  I have googled to try to bring this back to what these places would be in the 1700s and have had no luck sorting this out.

I have the same problem with his wife, Johanne Ortmann and being from Inner Forester Langeland.

Is anyone able to sort this out for me?

Is there a website that I can go to that tells me what these places used to be called compared to their name today?

[Inger Toudal]

Inderster must be the same as Inderste, i.e. 'renter, tenant'.

When you choose "Show all fields", it looks like this:

Source:    FT-1845
Name:    Kristian Gronemann   Sex:    M
Age:    70   Marital status:    Gift
Occupation:    Pensioneret Skolelærer Inderster   Birth place:    Sjælland
Parish:    Skjold   District:    Bjerre
County:    Vejle   Place name:    Skjold Bye
Household-/family no:    16   Title no/address:    et Huus
No of families/house:    2

Vejle, Bjerre, Skjold, Skjold, et Huus, 26-F2, FT-1850, D2033
Name:    Age:    Marital status:      Pos. in household:      Occupation:      Birth place:
Kristian Greenemann??    74    Gift       Pensioneret Degn    Sjelland
Johanne Ortmann??    70    Gift       hans Kone    Odense

You could try to find his confirmation in Helsingør, probably at the age of 14-15 years.

Is Johanne still alive in 1860?

Vejle, Nørvang, Vejle Købstad, Vejle Købstad, Søndermarken. D 39 c, 477-F1, FT-1860, D5872
Name:    Age:    Marital status:      Pos. in household:      Occupation:      Birth place:
Georg Gronnemann ??    37    Gift    Tømrersvend       Skjold
Andrea Rose    34    Gift    Kone       Veile
Johanne Gronnemann ??    8    Ugift    Barn       Veile
August Gronnemann ??    5    Ugift    Barn       Veile
Sine Gronnemann ??    3    Ugift    Barn       Veile
Hanne Ortmann    70    Enke    Aftægtskone       Odense

Vejle, Bjerre, Skjold, Schjolde Bye, Degnebolig, 2, FT-1834, C0528
Name:    Age:    Marital status:      Pos. in household:      Occupation:      
Christian Frederich Gronneman    59    Gift       Skolelærer og Kirkesanger    
Johanne Ortmann    54    Gift       hans Kone    
Juliane Frederiche Gronnemann    25    Ugift       Deres Børn    
Georg Ludvig Gronnemann    10    Ugift       Deres Børn    
Laurs Pedersen    6    Ugift       Pleiebarn    
Karen Marie Jensdatter    15    Ugift       Tjenestepige

Best regards,
Inger Toudal

[Inger Toudal]

I think I've located Johanne's baptism 6 Jan. 1781 in http://www.odensedatabasen.dk/
   
    Faders efternavn    Ortman
   Faders erhverv    chirurgus
   Adresse    582
   Dåbsdag    6
   Dåbsmåned    1
   Dåbsår    1781
   Begivenhed    Fader til døbt barn
   Sogn    Odense, Skt. Knud
   Dåbnummer i året i kirkebogen    1
   Det døbte barns køn    K
   Det døbte barns løbenummer    55465
   Det døbte barns personnummer    582023
   Det døbte barns fornavn   Johanne  
   Det døbte barns efternavn    Ortman
   Faders løbenummer    55466
   Faders personnummer    582003
   Kildetype    Dåbslister
   KildeID    55465

In the database you find the following events for Johanne: http://www.odensedatabasen.dk/kilde/person/582023
- click Kilde to see the events. There's a daugter baptized in Odense Vor Frue Kirke 1813.

The events for her father: http://www.odensedatabasen.dk/kilde/person/582003

Odense, Odense, Odense Købstad, Overgade, 491, 633, FT-1787, C0708
Name:    Age:    Marital status:      Pos. in household:      Occupation:      
Johan Friderich Ortmann    54    Gift 1. Ga    Husstandsoverhoved    Stadskirurg    
Cecilia Jørgensdatter    50    Gift 1. Ga    Gift Med Husstandsoverhoved       
Friderich Ortmann    19    Ugift    Barn    Eskadronsfeltskærer    
Juliana Maria Ortman    15    Ugift    Barn       
Johan Christian Ortmann    11    Ugift    Barn       
Cathrine Ortmann    7    Ugift    Barn       
Johanne Maria Ortmann    6    Ugift    Barn       
Jens Køhler    37    Ugift    Tjenestefolk    Feltskærersvend    
Jacob Bang    20    Ugift    Tjenestefolk    Feltskærersvend    
Johanne Kirstine Jørgensdatter    28    Ugift    Tjenestefolk    Tjenestepige

Odense, Aasum, Fraugde, Fraugde Bye, , 1, FT-1801, B5065
Name:    Age:    Marital status:      Pos. in household:      Occupation:      
Johannes Ibsen    52    Gift    Huusbonde    Sognepræst    
Frideriche Eschelin Andresen    29    Gift    Hans kone       
Peter Diderich Ibsen    8    -    Deres søn       
Anders Hansen    32    Ugift    Tienestekarl       
Niels Hansen    52    Ugift    Tienestekarl       
Johanne Ortmann    21    Ugift    Tienestepige       
Marie Chatrine Teller    31    Ugift    Tienestepige       
Maren Jensdatter    22    Ugift    Tienestepige

If this is the same Christian Gronnemann, he should be born in Lyngby (info from Odensedatabasen):

    KildeID    17910533
   Kildetype    Odense Købstads borgerskaber
   Dag for borgerskab    5
   Måned for borgerskab    8
   År for borgerskab    1812
   Personnummer    1223253
   Løbenummer    17910533
   Fornavn   Christian
   Efternavn    Gronnemann
   Erhverv    småhandler og spækhøker
   Begivenhed    Erhvervelse af borgerskab [trade license]
   Fødested    Lyngby

Events for Christian: http://www.odensedatabasen.dk/kilde/person/1223253

Best regards,
Inger T.

[Linda Michelle Thérèsa de Bodt Rosenland]

Thank you Inger for those links!  I will register to those sites so I can see the records.

While you were searching I was doing the same.  I found a Johanne Ortmann baptized 16 Jan 1781 in Sct Knud, Odense, Denmark.

1742-1797
Opslag 412
First entry

I just cannot seem to tie the father's name to the Census as it looks like his name is entered differently.

My Christian Gronnemann is a teacher.  I cannot translate the record you included so I do not know if it confirms that.

[Inger Toudal]

Johanne's father is Chirurgus Monsieur Ortman (Odense Skt Knud 1781).

Marriage of Hr. Christian Frederich Gronnemann Sogne Degn og Skolelærer for Rolfsted Menighed and Jomfrue Johanna Ortmann of Fraugde Præstegrd. took place Wed 2 Nov. 1808. The sponsors were Hr. Stads og Districts Chirurgus Ortmann of Faaborg and Skrædermester Hr. Stegman from Odensee (Fraugde, Åsum, Odense 1804-1814, opslag 196).

The master tailor is married to Johanne's sister:

Odense, Odense, Odense Købstad, Odense Kiøbstad, Kors Gadens syndre Port, 569, FT-1801, B9037
Name:    Age:    Marital status:      Pos. in household:      Occupation:      
Christopher Stichmann    26    Gift    huusbonde    skrædermester    
Juliane Maria Ortmann    29    Gift    hans kone       
Lovice Dahliee    9    Ugift    hendes børn       
Sophie Charlotte    -    Ugift    hendes børn       
Nielsine Frideriche    7    Ugift    hendes børn       
Matthias Hansen    22    Ugift    tienestefolk    skræddersvende    
Peder Nielsen    20    Ugift    tienestefolk    skræddersvende    
Henrich Hiorth    11    Ugift    tienestefolk    læredreng    
Anna Maria Kirstvig    17    Ugift    tienestefolk       
Albrecht Tolderlund    19    Ugift    logerende    disciple ved Odense Latine Skole    
Poul Tolderlund    18    Ugift    logerende    disciple ved Odense Latine Skole

Carl Wilhelm born 1811 in Rolsted parish is son of Sognedegn Gronemann and Kone Hanne Ortmann of Rolst., i.e. parish clerk G. and wife H.O.

In 1816, C.F. Gronemann is in Raarup parish: http://ddd.dda.dk/nygaard/visning_billed.asp?id=118034&sort=e

C. Gronemann dies 24 Jun. 1857 in Skjolde parish (Skjolde, Bjerre, Vejle 1839-1863, opslag 256).

His widow dies 29 Mar. 1867, also in Skjolde: http://ddd.dda.dk/nygaard/visning_billed.asp?id=289698&sort=e

It's strange with that trade license as small shop keeper and grocer, issued 5 Aug 1812. On exactly the same date Hans Gronnemann, born in Hillerød parish (Frederiksborg county) gets a similar license:

    KildeID    17910534
   Kildetype    Odense Købstads borgerskaber
   Dag for borgerskab    5
   Måned for borgerskab    8
   År for borgerskab    1812
   Personnummer    1223254
   Løbenummer    17910534
   Fornavn    Hans
   Efternavn    Gronnemann
   Erhverv    høker og småhandler
   Begivenhed    Erhvervelse af borgerskab
   Fødested    Hillerød

The events for Hans Frederich Gronemann: http://www.odensedatabasen.dk/kilde/person/1223254

At Cicilia Marie's baptism 1813, the parens are recorded as Musikus Gronnemann and wife Johanne Ortmann, and the last witness mentioned is Musikus Hans Gronnemann (Odense Vor Frue 1809-1814, opslag 88-89).

To me it looks like Christian Frederich and Hans Frederich could be cousins, or maybe even half-brothers. I think the Lyngby referred to in the trade licence for Christian Gronemann is Kongens Lyngby parish (København county).

Odense, Odense, Odense Købstad, Odense Kiøbstad, Overgade, 50, FT-1801, B9037
Name:    Age:    Marital status:      Pos. in household:      Occupation:   
Albert Rauch    50    Gift    huusbonde    stadsmusikandt    
Christine Elisabet    43    Gift    hans kone       
Marie Therecia    10    Ugift    deres børn       
Lovise Albertine    1    Ugift    deres børn       
Hans Larsen    25    Ugift    tienestefolk    musikandtsvende    
Jens Lindstrøm    33    Ugift    tienestefolk    musikandtsvende    
Nicolai Sivert    20    Ugift    tienestefolk    læredrenge    
Friderich Hansen    19    Ugift    tienestefolk    læredrenge    
Michael Møller    20    Ugift    tienestefolk    læredrenge    
Wilhelm Striegler    16    Ugift    tienestefolk    læredrenge    
Hans Gronemann    14    Ugift    tienestefolk    læredrenge    
Syline Kirstine    24    Ugift    tienestefolk       
Anne Kirstine    13    Ugift    tienestefolk

Frederiksborg, Lynge-Frederiksborg, Hillerød Købstad, Hillerød Kiøbstad, Bakken 141, 184, FT-1787, C3693
Navn:    Alder:    Civilstand:      Stilling i husstanden:      Erhverv:      Fødested:
Friderich Groneman    36    Gift    husbonde    Musikant  [in 2nd marriage]   
Anne Maria Nielsdatter    34    Gift    hans kone  [in 1st marriage]   
Jørgen Gronemann    12    Ugift    hans søn af 1. ægteskab       
Niels Gronemann    3    Ugift    deres søn af sidste ægteskab       
Hans Gronemann    1    Ugift    deres søn af sidste ægteskab       
Ellen Carlsdatter    19    Ugift    tjenestepige    tjenestepige

Inger T.

[Linda Michelle Thérèsa de Bodt Rosenland]

I am still so new at all of this that I am amazed at how you find this information!

Thank you so much!

[Linda Michelle Thérèsa de Bodt Rosenland]

Johanne's father is Chirurgus Monsieur Ortman (Odense Skt Knud 1781).

Marriage of Hr. Christian Frederich Gronnemann Sogne Degn og Skolelærer for Rolfsted Menighed and Jomfrue Johanna Ortmann of Fraugde Præstegrd. took place Wed 2 Nov. 1808. The sponsors were Hr. Stads og Districts Chirurgus Ortmann of Faaborg and Skrædermester Hr. Stegman from Odensee (Fraugde, Åsum, Odense 1804-1814, opslag 196).

I think chirugus must have some relation to the fact that her father was the Chief City Surgeon in Sct Knud, Odense.  From all of the records I have seen her father is Johan Friderich Ortmann, surgeon, and her mother is Sidsel (Cicilia) Jorgensdatter Boedsgaard.

[Inger Toudal]

Hi Rebecca,

You're right about Johanne's father's occupation, City surgeon in Odense (Sankt Knud is one of the parishes in the city of Odense). According to Odensedatabasen he died in Oct. 1789.

The sponsor at Johanne's wedding 1808 is her brother, who was in Middelfart in 1801:

Odense, Vends, Middelfart Købstad, Middelfart Købstad, Store Adelgade 55, 66, FT-1801, B2173
Name:    Age:    Marital status:      Pos. in household:      Occupation:      
Mette Marie Ahrent    64 år    Enke(mand)    husmoder    enke e. afdøde told og consumtions kass.Bonnemann    
Anne Poulsdatter    54 år    Ugift    tienestepige    -    
Friderich Ortmann    32 år    Ugift    logerende    distrikts chirurg

- and had moved on to Faaborg by 1808:

Svendborg, Sallinge, Faaborg Købstad, Faaborg Købstad, Torvet nr. 54, , FT-1834, C0162
Name:    Age:    Marital status:      Pos. in household:      Occupation:      
Frederik Ortmann    65    Gift       Districks Chirurg    
Else Marie Brandt    47    Gift       Hans Kone    
Maren Ortmann    29    Ugift       Deres Børn    
Jens Ortmann    26    Ugift       Deres Børn    
Frederikke Ortmann    23    Ugift       Deres Børn    
Julie Ortmann    21    Ugift       Deres Børn    
Hans Henriksen    29    Ugift       Tjenestefolk    
Christiane Grønbech    32    Ugift       Tjenestefolk    
Anne Nielsdatter    24    Ugift       Tjenestefolk

Perhaps you've noticed that you can find info for some of Christian Frederich and Johanne's children in Nygårds Sedler:

http://ddd.dda.dk/nygaard/visning_billed.asp?id=118040&sort=e
- click on the given name to see info

Regards,
Inger T.

[Linda Michelle Thérèsa de Bodt Rosenland]

Inger, thank you so much for this!

No, I did not know that other website was available.  I have tried to make searches for specific parish online sites but did not think to look at Odense because there have been so few ancestors from that area.  Now there are.

English is also not my first language which makes researching a little more challenging.

Thank you, again.  I have been doing this research for 2 years now and I am still learning so much along the way.