Holbaek in Sjaelland

[Lissa Pedersen]

Hi,

Found the births of the children of Jens Kristensen/Christensen and Johanne Marie (Pedersdatter) - all born in Ruds Vedby parish (1833-1855) - except for Niels Peder Jensen who was born in Sønderup:

Christian Jensen b. 23 Jun 1836, AO-11
Karen Kirstine Jensdatter b. 20 Jul 1838, AO-72
Hans Jensen b. 10 Sep 1840
Ane Marie Jensen b. 19 Jun 1843, AO-86 - she died 19 Sep 1844, AO-343

(And then the one we know:
Ane Marie Nor Jensen b. 26 Oct 1844, AO-91)

Lissa

[Lissa Pedersen]

Hi

Censuses on Arkivalieronline

Ruds Vedby 1855 - a house - opslag 18:
Jens Christensen, 52 (born in Undløse)
Johanne Marie, 52 (born in Copenhagen)
Hans Jensen 15 and Ane Marie Jensen, 10 (both born in the parish Ruds Vedby)

Vedby 1860 - at Conradineslyst - opslag 2:
Jens Christensen, 55 (born in Undløse)

Ruds Vedby 1870 - at Vedbygaard - opslag 2:
Jens Christensen, 64 (born in Undløse)

Lissa

[Jeppe Juel Jensen]

Hej Lissa.

Ang. Johanne Marie.
Hun er meget sandsynlig født på Den kgl. Fødselsstiftelse.
Hvis forældrene er ukendte - ikke angivet - kunne hun jo ikke få noget Patronym/Efternavn.
Hvorfor hun så har skiftet efternavn , er nok et godt spørgsmål.

Navneangivelsen ved hende død underbygger min teori - der står:

Ruds vedby. KB. 1859. 12 Fe,/ 19 Feb.  opslag 276.

Johanne Marie Kjøbenhavn.
Aftægtsmand Jens Christensens Kone.  56 .
----------------

Her får hun som efternavn "Kjøbenhavn"  Det ses ofte ved børn fra Fødselstiftelsen.
mvh. jeppe.

PS. Kan du oversætte til Julie,  - hvis nødvendig?

[Julie Pickett]

Hello Lissa and Jeppe!

Thank you for finding Ane Marie's sibling's records, Lissa. I have added all of them to the tree I am creating. It is very interesting that after Johanne Marie died in 1859, Jens was living alone even though Ane Marie would have only been 15 years old. I have searched for the children in the 1860 and 1870 FT's for Ruds Vedby and Sondersted and did not find them. It's like they disappeared. It will be so helpful once the censuses are all transcribed. They could be in so many different locations that it would be very time consuming to go to all of the surrounding FT's to try to find them. I wonder if more of Ane's siblings came to the United States and if they came earlier than previously believed. Perhaps this is something to explore.

I think that Jeppe is saying that Johanne Marie was born or was left in an orphanage, is this correct? If so, then it wouldn't surprise me if once she started having children of her own, she changed her surname to match her children's patrony/surname. I don't think I saw Johanne Marie's surname ever listed as Jensdatter, just Jensen on two of the censuses, and no surname on another.

To find her baptismal record would be nearly impossible, I suspect.

Thanks again for the help!

Kind regards,

Julie

[Chris Nelson]

When checking towns like Kundby and Ruds-Vedby on Google Earth, I notice they all have a main church with a cemetery. What are the chances that some of these people remain buried there? Or is Denmark like Germany in that cemetery burials are short term?

[Julie Pickett]

Hi Chris,

It is my understanding that burials are short term unless money is paid to keep the grave longer. Even then, from what I've learned, they don't usually last longer than 100 years or so.

I checked the one Danish grave documentation site that I know about and I don't think the areas in Holbaek in which we are interested have been done. http://www.dk-gravsten.dk/Holbaek-amt.php

Since I can't see photos of my Danish ancestors' graves, I enjoy looking at photos of the churches (kirker) in which they probably were baptized, maybe attended services, and are possibly buried. Here's a link to a site where all (or almost all) kirke photos are posted:
http://dis-danmark.dk/kirkeimg/index.asp   Then click on either Søg via: Kirker | Sogne and use the alphabet to find Ruds Vedby, Kundby and other places we've been searching.

Regards,

Julie

Edited to say that I'm sorry I didn't get the websites hyperlinked and I can't figure out how to hyperlink them in the edit box.

[Julie Pickett]

Here are some notes I made about Danish burial customs. I got this information from the old forum when I posted questions about the possibility of getting gravestone photos.

Jesper Skov: "In Denmark graves are used multiple times. The minimum perioed a grave is preserved is 20 years - then, unless you renew it, it reverts to the cemetery, and another person can be buried there. Without a new burial in the plot the maxium number of years a grave can be preserved is 100."

Julie Pickett: "I've wondered how all of the burials could take place in a parish cemetery."
Jesper Skov: "Today many people become cremated, so many cemeteries (in the larger cities) are actually quite empty. In the rural areas many people owned family grave plots. A normal grave plot (2.5 m x 2.5 m) can hold four coffins. Two buried deep and two on top of those."

Julie: "I don't think that a casket and a properly embalmed body would totally decay in 20 years."
Jesper: "Most coffins are made of (easy degradable) pine. Embalming is nearly never used in Denmark."

Julie: "So I guess I will not pursue grave photographing."
Jesper Skov: "If they are not mentioned at [www.joanbedsted.dk] or [www.polsterbo.dk] then there probably is no headstone left."

Peter Kristiansen: "Taking op the topic with modern cemeteries in Denmark: A grave is normally only ensured for 20 years. If the descenders wants to keep the place, they have to pay an annual fee. If not the headstone is removed and often demolished. If the person buried is beeing considered of special interest to local society (politician, artist, priest, etc. etc.) the stone might be preserved in a special corner of the cemetery.

Mostly the buried bodies will have been reduced to bones within those 20 years, and if found when making a new grave, they'll be taken care of by the digger, either putting them back in the bottom of the grave, or buried in a special area of the cemetery.

Since many people wants to be cremated instead, there are in fact lot of free areas in the parish-cemeteries. Many cemeteries in the country-site have still preserved medieval walls made of bricks, which tells us that they have not been made bigger the last 500 years."

I found this topic interesting when we discussed it and saved the information.

Hope this helps.

Julie

[Lissa Pedersen]

Hi,

Re Johanne Marie.
Most likely she is born at the Royal Birth Hospital (don't know whether I have translated it correctly?)
Try this link: http://www.familieindex.dk/familie/com00817.htm and translate using www.translate.google.com.
If the parents are unknown - their names not stated in the records - she couldn't have a patronym/last name.

And why she has changed her last name, is a good question.

The name when she died substantiates my theory - it says:

Ruds vedby. KB. 1859. 12 Feb/19 Feb.  opslag 276.

Johanne Marie Kjøbenhavn (last name Kjøbenhavn).
Male pensioner Jens Christensen's wife 56
----------------
She has here the last name "Kjøbenhavn" - this is often seen when children are born at the Birth Hospital.

Hope this clarifies a bit?

My comments: Perhaps Johanne Marie has been a foster child in one of the parishes in the area and it could be worth while trying to find a possible confirmation record?

Lissa

[Julie Pickett]

Hi Lissa,

That was an informative website - thanks!

I found a baptism/birth record book for Den Kgl. Fødselsstiftelse in Kjøbenhavn. I found at least two Johanne Maries in 1803 (opslag 7 & 8 ). There are so many entries per year that I didn't even go further than that as there isn't parental information listed, so how would I know which Johanne Marie is correct anyway? As you said, perhaps a confirmation record would be helpful if I knew where to look.

Also interesting to note: Johanne Marie's first child who was born out of wedlock, Niels Peder Jensen, had the middle name Peder. Johanne went by Pedersdatter for awhile. This makes me wonder if a man named Peder fostered her as a girl. Again, this would be like looking for a needle in a haystack without more information about where she was raised.

I did find Niels Peder Jensen in the 1860 Vedby FT living with his grandfather (Christen Nielsen) and a wife. I forgot to notate the opslag, but it was probably around opslag 10?? Christen was a widow.

I found Kirsten Nielsdatter's (Christen Nielsen's wife) death record in Ruds Vedby in 1858, opslag 276.

I also may have found Christen's death record in 1865 (opslag 259), but the age isn't a perfect match (86 years, which would make him born about 1879 instead of the early 1880s as calculated from the censuses we found). However, it looks like his occupation is a match. When I go to Undlose baptism records, I'm not finding any definited matches for him. I found a confirmation record for him in Undlose (I think it says that he was born to a Niels Jensen), but not enough information to know for sure.

I have not been able to find a marriage record in Undlose for Christen/Kristen Nielsen and Kirsten Larsdatter.

I think I need to work on something else for awhile and come back to this puzzle later.

Thanks again for your help!

Kind regards,

Julie

[Julie Pickett]

Hello,

Since I hit a brick wall on both Johanne Marie Pedersdatter/Jensen and Christen Nielsen, I have gone back to another part of the tree to do more work. Here is the branch I'm working on again:



Specifically, I am working on Ane Kierstine Hansdatter.

After her husband Rasmus Jeppesen died, I believe that she married a young man named Peder Larsen. Would somebody please look at the marriage record and tell me if you think that this is the correct one (Norre Jernlose, 1835-1882, opslag 5, #2). It looks like it says that the bride was the widow of Rasmus Jeppesen.  I found this couple in the 1840 census, so I really do think it is right, but would like confirmation and I would also like to know if it says where she was born so I can find her birth record.

Here is the census for reference:

Holbæk, Merløse, Nørre Jernløse, Nørrejernløse, , et Huus, 31, FT-1840
Name: Age: Marital status: Occupation in household: Occupation: Birth place:
Peder Larsen 30  Gift  Huusmand med Jord 
Ane Hansdatter 65  Gift  hans Kone


Thank you,

Julie

[Helmer Christiansen]

The census 1845 shows Peder Larsen, 35, born in Undløse and married to a young wife, Mette Kirstine Jacobsdatter, 21, born in Qvandløse (=Kvanløse).

[Julie Pickett]

The census 1845 shows Peder Larsen, 35, born in Undløse and married to a young wife, Mette Kirstine Jacobsdatter, 21, born in Qvandløse (=Kvanløse).

Thank you, Helmer. Peder Larsen must have remarried after Ane Hansdatter died in 1844. I have Anne's death record in Norre Jernlose, 1842-1864, opslag 23, #6.

I think I found a possibility for Anne's confirmation in Norre Jernlose, 1744-1800, opslag 132, in the 1789 column on the right side, #12. I don't understand what is written after her age of 15 years. Does it say where she was born or christened?

Thank you,

Julie

[Jeppe Juel Jensen]

Hej Julie.

First abt. Johanne Marie.
I think you are rigth abt. her "Pedersen name".  Most likely she was fostered by a man named
Peder. But where?  We know she was born on Fødselstiftelsen around 1803.  When married
i Sønderup it is stated: Hun/she vacc. 1809 by Dr. Græbell!
Dr. Græbell was as far I remember a Dr. in Ringsted!  It is: she has been aroud there when
6 - 7 years old!  One had to show ones "vacc. attest" before aloved going to school.
It should be possible to find her confirmation.
-----------------

Anne/Anna/ Ane/ Anne Kjerstine in Nr. Jernløse.
In my opinion her name was Anna!  Anna Kjerstine I have only seen one time (FT 1801) - she
always go as Anne/Anna/ Ane Hansdatter.
And yes, after the dead of Rasmus she remarried. it goes:
Nr. Jernløse. 1838. 2. opslag 5.
Ungkarl Peder Larsen hos Hjulmand Rasmus Zachariasen i Krøierup. 28 aar. Er vaccineret.
Enken efter Huusmand Rasmus Jeppesen af Nørrejernløse Ane Hansdatter63 Aar gammel. Har havt de naturlige Kopper.
Forlovere: Jens Larsen i Kagerup; Huusmand Peder Rasmusen i lille Borup.
Viet 13 Julii 1838 i Kirken.
Skifteattest fremlagt for Enken dateret Løvenborg d. 23 Maii 1838.
--------------------------
She died 1844 in Nr. Jernløse: 30 Juni / 5te Julii. Ane Hansdatter.
Huusmand Peder Larsens Kone af Kræmmerstenshuuset under Nørrejernløse. 73 Aar.
Druknede i en Brønd!  Ifølge Justitsraad Lynges Skrivelse af 3die Julii blev hun begravet med Jordpaakastelse og sædvanlige Ceremonier.
-----------------------
Løvenborg ! Hmm. interesting.  Will take a look.  More later on!

Best regards - jeppe.

[Jeppe Juel Jensen]

Hej again.

Listing of Probates extracted by Aurelia Clemont.
Løvenborg. 1838. 15 Feb.
Rasmus Jepsen. Hmd i Kærnestenshuuset under Nørrejernløse.
Ch: Else Rasmusdatter ~ Fredrik JOhansen gmd. i lille Knabstrup
      Kirsten Rasmusd. ~ Lars Nielsen i Løsserup.
      Jeppe Rasmusen. boende i København.
      Peder Rasmusen. Hmd i Lille Borup.
---------------------
Looking for a Hans  - Hansdatter.   This ?
 
1786. 19 Juni. Ane Jensdatter i Holløse.
Husb. Hans Jensen.Ch. Hans Hansen 5.  Ane Hansdatter 12. Karen Hansdatter 1.
-------------------------

Kb. Nørre Jernløse. 1786. Festo Tr.  opslag 73.
Hans Jensens h. Ane Jensdatter i Holløse. 43 aar gl.
----------------------

Holbæk, Merløse, Kvanløse, Holløse Bye, , 38, FT-1787, C0558

Hans Jensen 45  Gift Hosbonde Bonde Gaardbeboere 
Maren Andersdatter 24  Gift Madmoder   
Anne Hansdatter 13  Ugift ægte Børn i Mandens første Egteskab   
Hans Hansen 7  Ugift ægte Børn i Mandens første Egteskab   
Karen Hansdatter 3  Ugift ægte Børn i Mandens første Egteskab   
Peder Larsen 23  Ugift Tienestefolk
Ingeborg Larsdatter 21  Ugift Tienestefolk
-------------------
And this will be your Anna Hansdatter:

Kvanløse 1775.opslag 25. 1744-1800.
Dom. 1 p. Epiph
Hans Jensen Gaardmands Daatter i Holløse noe. ANNA.
Jesper Jensens h. i Hanerup b.d.
Test: Enevold Jensen i Regstrupog H.
Jørgen Jensen og Hans Latsens h. i Holløse.
--------------------
jeppe.

[Jeppe Juel Jensen]

And looking further more. Løvenborg. Probates.

1750. 23 Sept.
Anders Olufsen i Nørre Jernløse.
W. Ane Ibsdatter.
Ch. Jeppe Andersen 20. Ole Andersen 17. Peder A. 14. Kirsten A. 10.Christen A. 8.
Johanne A. 4. Karen A. 2
W.B. Christen Ibsen i Kisserup.
WG Christen Christensen i Nr. Jernløse.
---------------------
These are the parents of Jep/Jeppe Andersen i Hanerup!!
---------------------
Kb. Nr. Jernløse, 1743 - 62 opslag 12.
1750 Dom exaudi. Sal. Anders Olsen. 52 Aar gl. (* 1698)
--------------------
Oluf = Ole.

mvh. jeppe

[Julie Pickett]

Oh my goodness, Jeppe, you are truly amazing! I can't wait until I have time to really sift through all of the information you have found.

I did resume searching for Johanne Marie Petersdatter/Jensen. I started looking at sogns in Ringsted and you are correct - Dr. Græbell was there at that time period! I can't believe you knew that. I have to stop looking for now, but I have searched these sogns so far without finding her: Ringsted, Hom, Benlose and Sigersted. I will search more later tonight.

With gratitude,

Julie

[Julie Pickett]

I looked for Johanne Marie's confirmation record in every sogn in Ringsted, Soro and did not find an exact match. I really didn't find even a close match. So I'm thinking that perhaps she was born in Kobenhavn, then lived in Ringsted Herred at the time of her vaccination, but moved away from Ringsted before her confirmation. Perhaps when I'm bored I will search Sogns in other Herreds in Soro for her confirmation.

But for now, I'm going to move on to Anne Hansdatter again.

Kind regards,

Julie

[Julie Pickett]

Hej Julie.

She died 1844 in Nr. Jernløse: 30 Juni / 5te Julii. Ane Hansdatter.

Druknede i en Brønd! 

Best regards - jeppe.

Hello again. Does this say that she drowned in a well?! That's what Google Translate says.

Thank you,

Julie

[Julie Pickett]

For the record, I also found this probate record at Aurelia's wonderful website:

Peder Andersen unmd gmd i N.Jernlose       1 jun 1763       pg 80
MODER:   Ane Ibsd = (2) Oluf Jorgensen
BRO:     Oluf Andersen gmd i N.Jernlose
         Jeppe Andersen  gmd i Hannerup         Christen Andersen  home
SIS:     Kirsten Andersdtr        20
         Johanne Andersdtr        16
         Karen Andersdtr  14
[Lovenborg, Baroni gods skpr; Bk 3 1756-99; film 41308]

I will have to work on this more tomorrow and post an updated descendancy chart.

Regards,

Julie

[Jeppe Juel Jensen]

Hej - hello - goodmorning.

"Does this say that she drowned in a well?! "

Yes !  How sad - indeed.

jeppe

[Julie Pickett]

Thanks for confirming that, Jeppe. Very tragic death.

I didn't have time to work on this genealogy puzzle today, but I did update the pedigree chart with the new information Jeppe found:



And here is Anna Hansdatter's information that we know so far. I didn't have success last night finding her father's birth and death info.



I hope to work on this more tomorrow evening.

Kind regards,

Julie

[Chris Nelson]

Thank you for the updates.

I've added a couple names to the tree on Ancestry: Fred and Ane's children. Trena was my g-grandmother.