Looking for marriage of Ernst Diderich Schombe in Cobenhavn 1771

[Kobus Schoombie]

I am doing research on my family in South Africa and found the following important information on www.familysearch.com (LDS): Marriage of Ernst Diderich Schombe with Johanne Marie Johansdr, 15 October 1771, place given as Cobenhavn, Cobenhavn, Denmark. The "e" at the end of the surname may have a accent mark on it or not. The reference information on the LDS database is system origin: Denmark-EASy , source film number: 44446, reference number: 1767-1778. The information is text format only and the real source record is not given. I have tried to look for marriages in Cobenhavn using the Arkievalieronline site, but the records are nearly impossible to read if you do not know Latin and Danish. The film number on the LDS site is in a range that normally indicates that the information was provided by a private individual or unverified source so it is no use to ask them for more information. Any suggestions on how and where I should search for this marriage?

[Jesper Skov]

Holmen, Sokkelund, København 1767-1778 opslag 142


Kind regards,

Jesper Skov

[Inger Buchard]

The entry in Holmen 1767-78 opslag 142 says:
October 15th (1771) engaged to be married (this is not the wedding)
at mr Abildgaard ..
Ernst Diderich Schom-
be, shoemaker apprentice
(presented) confirmation certificate
(signed by) reverend Bytzow, dated
Copenhagen April 6th 1756
and ..
Johanne Marie Johan's Daughter
C(onfirmation certificate) (Bremerholm Church = Holmens Church) dated Dec. 19th 1770?

The witness of the groom
Peter Nielsen Falck
grocer living in ...street
of the bride:
Thomas Christophersen
Beer .. living in
Lille Larsbjoernstraede

Opslag 143:
The witnesses assure
that the groom Ernst Diderick
Schombe is the same person who in
the confirmations certificate is noted as
Ernst Johan Gotlieb
(signed: Peter Nielsen F.., Thomas Christophersen)

I apologize for my bad english, but I hope you understand the text

Inger

[Kobus Schoombie]

Thank you both. That was extremely quick. It took me three months and I gave up on page 116 of Holmen. Another month and I may have found it myself, but I doubt it. How did you find it so quick? Do you know if this marriage eventually took place? If you come accross any other events related to this family Schombe please let me know.

I would also like to hear if you think the surname is of Danish origin. The "e" at the end has a bit of French flavour to it for me. I saw a number of people with the name Schom and Schomp as I looked through the church records. Somehow it does not sound Danish or Scandinavian to me, but you will be able to judge much better than me.

[Inger Buchard]

The surname Schombe would probably be German; the German part of the population of Copenhagen in the 18th century ist very big, as you can see from the language of the church records.

I found rather many 'Schomber' in the German genealogy search machine at www.genealogienetz.de - go to metasearch and make a try. The hits appearing on the name Schomber are mostly from the list of lost soldiers from WW I 1914-18, but nevertheless show that the name is rather common towards the Czech border and in central Germany

Inger

[Kobus Schoombie]

I initially thought the same about a German connection, but the root ancester of the family in South Africa initially spelt his surname Schombé. To me this looks French. Any other thoughts about this are welcome. The spelling and pronunciation did not make sense to the Dutch/Afrikaans language and it changed to Schombe when the old man died and then within a matter of twenty years completely changed to something that the locals were happy with. I would guess that the same thing happened in Denmark, especially with the strong German influence that you mentioned. Was there ever an influx of French immigrants into Denmark?

One last question: at what age would a young boy get the confirmation in rural Denmark in the year 1740?

[Inger Buchard]

There was also a french influence in Denmark, of course, but to my knowledge not among ordinary carpenters, shoemakers etc.
All his different firstnames are definitely German; one reason that the surname was written with a é might be to conceal the German origin on arrival to South Africa? I imagine, neither the Boers nor the Englishmen were happy about German immigrants?

Confirmation: at the age of ab. 15-16 years. So he would be born around 1740, when confirmatet 1756

Inger

[Kobus Schoombie]

I believe this man may have been the brother of my root ancestor, Andreas Godlieb, although the evidence is vague and circumstancial. The unconfirmed story in the family is that Andreas fled because he thought he killed his brother. The question always arises who the brother was and if it was an older or younger brother. Andreas gave his own birth date as 1741, which makes them twins, or Ernst was a year or two older. Thank you for helping to establish this.

You are right about the German names, but wrong about a reason to hide the origin. Germans (and French) were welcomed as immigrants in South Africa. Many Germans came as missionaries. The murder may have been a good reason for changing names, but just changing the last letter seems a bit stupid for somebody who wants to hide from the law. The Dutch wrote Andreas's surname as Schoumbe on the VOC muster papers. He could have stayed with that version without drawing any attention. There is thus sufficient agument to make room for the opinion that the Schombé spelling may be authentic and that it tells a story of where the family came from. The French connection is just a wild guess as there is no trace of this surname to be found in any French online search tools. I have a vague link to Finland. That will be my next area of research.

[Inger Buchard]

By the way: I searched for the marriage in the Danish list of marriages at Holmens kirke 1764-80 and found a note about it on opslag 129:
no wedding day mentioned, only a note upon the engagement in Oct. 1771

Inger

[Kobus Schoombie]

That is very good news, because it fits in perfectly with the family story. According to the story, Andreas's brother followed him some six years after the "murder" to show him that he is still alive. The date for this journey works out to be 1771. If Ernst was the brother then a marriage would have prevented such a dangerous journey. It looks like a broken heart was the reason behind the start of the journey. Unfortunately I can find no records of Ernst boarding a VOC ship in Holland. Are there any records of departures from Denmark that could be consulted?

I forgot to mention in the previous post about the French connection that our root father, Andreas, christened his first son with the name of Guillaume. That is a French name. The son did not like it and called himself Gideon. The Guillaume name still exists in the family to this day in the form of the name Gilliam.

[Jane C]

Curiouser and curiouser. A very interesting possibility that Ernst could be a brother.

Here's another idea about the name Guillaume (for the benefit of the forum, as I believe you know this):

Andreas Godlieb Schombe's wife Johanna Sophia Viljoen
had a great-grandfather named Guillaume Nel,
born in France and died in South Africa.
He may have been the first (or one of the first) of her ancestors to immigrate to South Africa
if this family tree online is correct, see LINK:

http://www.jouberts.info/tngfiles/getperson.php?personID=I1727&tree=WernerJoubert

This same Joubert Family tree says Andreas Godlieb Schoombee was born 1741 in Kongingsdal, Denmark, and died 15 Mar 1829 at Graaff-Reinet, Cape, South Africa - so it must be the same man. (I know you have an online tree as well - and maybe the Joubert site is yours? LOL)

[Kobus Schoombie]

Well done to find this reference. No, I have no connection with the Joubert site and yes, I have an online tree and a much bigger private tree. All the information you quote is originally from an early 20th century genealogist named De Villiers, whos work was expended by Palma and finally Heese, before being handed over to GISA (Genealogical Institute of South Africa) to look after it. Why I tell you this, is to point out that the original work by De Villiers did not contain any reference to sources. The information quoted in the Joubert site was included in the very first edition of De Villiers's book. The real source of his information is a mystery which is why I treat it as a family legend until verified from handwritten documents.

You are correct about the name of the great-grandfather, but this is not really relevant. When deciding on a name for a child, the mother's great-grandfather will never come into the picture unless the name is passed down through generations. This did not happen. It is no surprise to find a Guillaume in the Nel family. They immigrated to South Africa in the group we call the French Hugenots (1688). Just for general knowledge, the french pronunciation of Guillaume is like the english William. The dutch would pronounce it like in the english word guilty.

This chain of posts now merges with an earlier chain with the title "Danish people in service of VOC in South Africa in 1765". That post came to the conclusion that Koningsdal is Kongsdal and the parish is Undløse. This was based on a christening of Anna Margaretha referred to as Gottlieb Schombsdatter. This is a nice fit if you want to believe there is a fit, but the real evidence is vague because Gottlieb/GottLob is found in every third page of church registers. Schomb just does not have the same sound to it as Schombe. Would anybody be so kind to translate this Undløse register for me? The reference is Kongsdal, Undløse Sogn, Merløse Herred, Holbæk Amt, 1726-1784, page 25, 4th Sunday.

Greetings
Kobus

[Inger Buchard]

Would anybody be so kind to translate this Undløse register for me? The reference is Kongsdal, Undløse Sogn, Merløse Herred, Holbæk Amt, 1726-1784, page 25, 4th Sunday
4th sunday after Easter
baptized Anna Margaretha, Gottlieb Schumbs dauther in Gandløse
(Sponsors:)
Mad(am) Kier-
(gaard) bb (carried the child); mad. Inge.. Joensen, Anna Marie Johansdatter
Ellen Kirstine Christensdatter, Margarethe Hee..?

Inger

[Kobus Schoombie]

Thanks Inger

I just want to make sure I have all the facts. In the church register, "Mad(am) Kier(g)aard" is preceded by something that looks like "adobt". Does this have the same meaning as in english? Am I correct in observing that all the other names ends with ...datter, in other words they are all unmarried? Surely the mother would be present if she was alive and able to move?

Regards
Kobus

[Inger Buchard]

No, there is no adoption mentioned. The word before Mad. Kielgaard ist 'døbt' = baptized.
The title Madam means that the godmother is of a higher social standard than servants and farmers

The -datter doesn't necessarly mean that these women were unmarried; a woman kept her birth name (patronymic from her father's first name) till she got old enoug to be remembered by her husband's name. This could take many years.
But: often the person mentioned as the second sponsor was a younger girl whose job was to hold the bonnet (churches were cold and a wet baby's head might be the cause of illness and/or death)

Inger

[Lotte Bjørn Aagesen]

Hello Kobus -

I have followed this thread with interest, as I myself have a family mystery in South Africa.

You kindly answered my thread (have been late answering, sorry!)!

Apparently you have had a family mystery in Denmark.

you ask: 'Unfortunately I can find no records of Ernst boarding a VOC ship in Holland. Are there any records of departures from Denmark that could be consulted?'

i don't know if this is any help: a century later about 1871- when my great grandfathers sister, her husbond and their baby daughter went to South africa  - they left out of Hamburg.

I don't believe any ships would go to South Africa out of Copenhagen.

greetings, Lotte Bjørn Aagesen