Transcription: Niels Mogensen marriage

Erik Schaefer · 28 Nov 2012 - 06:59

Help please

Skanderborg, Vrads, Them 1751-1814 opslag 408 #1

7 Oct 1810

? Ungkarl Niels Mogensen of (Toustrop?) ?? ?? ?? ?? Pigen Mette Marie of Glarboed (I can't read the rest).

It looks like one of the witnesses is "Niels Terpelsen" of Glarboed. I know Mette Marie's last name is Rasmusdatter, I don't know why it is not listed in the marriage record. But I'm wondering if this is her family. Would Niels Terskelsen in the census below be the same witness in her marriage? The Mette Rasmusdatter below who is 11 is the right age to be the one in the marriage record:

Skanderborg, Vrads, Them, Glarboed, , , 190, FT-1801
Name:    Age:    Marital status:      Occupation in household:      Occupation:      Birth place:
Niels Terskelsen     38    Gift   Mand   Boelsmand, Træskomand
Maren Knudsdatter   43    Gift   hans Kone
Knud Pedersen     16    Ugift   hendes Barn af 1. Ægteskab
Marie Rasmusdatter   14    Ugift   [hendes Børn af 2. Ægteskab]
Mette Rasmusdatter   11    Ugift   [hendes Børn af 2. Ægteskab]
Maren Rasmusdatter   8    Ugift   [hendes Børn af 2. Ægteskab]

Inger Toudal · 28 Nov 2012 - 10:36

1810, d. 7 Oct.
forlangte Ungkarl Niels Mogensen af Toustrup at
ingaae Ægteskab med Pigen Mette Marie af Glarboed.
Imod dette Ægteskabs Fuldbÿrdigelse er intet i nogen
Henseende at erindre tilstaae Forloverne
Niels Terkelsen Glarboed Rasmus Mortensen ibid:

1810, the 7 Oct.
bachelor Niels Mogensen of Toustrup required to
contract a marriage with the maid Mette Marie of Glarboed.
That there is nothing to object to the consummation of
this marriage in any respect is confirmed by the sponsors
Niels Terkelsen Glarboed Rasmus Mortensen ibid: [same place]

It's a betrothal record. For some reason there are no marriage records in the period 1801-1814 (see opslag 1).

Niels Terkelsen is Mette Rasmusdatter's stepfather, so it seems probable that he would be her sponsor.

In 1801 Maren Knudsdatter is in her 3rd marriage (click "Show all fields" to get the info). Here she is with her 2nd husband, Mette's father:

Skanderborg, Tyrsting, Gammel Rye, Rye By, , 24, FT-1787, A7001
Name: Age: Marital status: Position in household: Occupation:
Rasmus Hansen   40    gift   Mand   Huus og Træskoemand.
Maren Knuds Dr   30    gift   hans Kone
Knud Pedersen   4       Konens Søn i 1ste Ægteskab
Marie Rasmus Dr   2       i 2det givtermaal
Niels Pedersen   30    ugift   en Karl

Is this the groom?

Skanderborg, Gjern, Dallerup, Toustrup Bye, , 7, FT-1801, B4106
Name: Age: Marital status: Position in household: Occupation:
Mogens Nielsen   58    Enke(mand)   Husbonde   Gaardmand
Niels Mogensen   18    Ugift   Hans Børn
Kirsten Mogensdatter   17    Ugift   Hans Børn
Søren Mogensen   15    Ugift   Hans Børn
Peder Mogensen   10    Ugift   Hans Børn
Christen Mogensen   8    Ugift   Hans Børn
Ane Mogensdatter   4    Ugift   Hans Børn
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Best regards,
Inger Toudal

Inge Hedal · 28 Nov 2012 - 10:50

In order to see where Mette Marie was born, I searched her with Niels Mogensen, her husband, in FT-1845:
Skanderborg, Vrads, Them, Salten Bye, Glarboe en Gaard, 159, FT-1845, B3589
Niels Mogensen 65 Gift Aftægtsfolk Laasbye Sogn Skanderborg Amt
Mette Marie Rasmusdatter 56 Gift Aftægtsfolk Them Sogn
Peder Nielsen 25 Ugift Træskokarl deres Søn Them Sogn
Else Marie Nielsdatter 14 Ugift deres Datter Them Sogn

Mette Marie was born in Them, AO Skanderborg, Vrads, Them 1751-1814 # 204:
1790
Januar
d. 17de Rasmus Hansen i Salten Skov en Datter Mette Marie.
Rasmus Mortensens Hustrue ibid. bar Barnet.
Fadderne: Gothfred Pedersens Hustrue ibid. – Niels Pedersen -
Laus Mortensen – Niels Andersen – Alle sammestæd fra.
(The next lines have nothing to do with Mette Marie).

Mette Marie's mother married at least three times: 1. A man called Peder, the father of Knud Pedersen, 2. Rasmus Hansen, Mette Marie's father, and 3. Niels Terkelsen.

Best regards, Inge Hedal

Erik Schaefer · 28 Nov 2012 - 16:56

Thank you both.

I could not find that 1787 census because I did not know "Knud Dr" was an abbreviation for "Knudsdatter". And honestly I probably would have overlooked it in Gammel Rye since I was mainly focused on Vrads and Them. I'm still learning

Inger what do you mean when you said "Click 'Show all fields'"? I don't see that link on the DDD screen.

Inger Toudal · 28 Nov 2012 - 21:41

Hi Erik,

Number of marriages is listed in FT-1787 and FT-1801.

On ddd.dda.dk you have to search for the person for whom you want the marriage info. In this case I searched in FT-1787 in the whole of Skanderborg county without choosing a district or parish. I only wrote Maren Knu in the search field. I knew she should be around 29 years old in the 1787 census.

Maren Knuds Dr in Gammel Rye, 30 y, turned out to be the right person. From the household info I returned to the search result, where you can click "Show all fields".

The same for FT-1801, except I knew she was living in Them parish.

Best regards,
Inger T.

Erik Schaefer · 29 Nov 2012 - 06:24

I see it now. Thank you. I guess I was just looking at her children and their last names basically showed 3 marriages. But I can see how this would be helpful if she married two men with the same first name, or if she had married with no children.

Thank you

Inger Toudal · 29 Nov 2012 - 13:05

You're right. In this case, you get no additional info by clicking "Show all fields". But you can use it e.g. to find out if Niels Terkelsen had been married before. By the way, number of marriage is shown also for widows and widowers.

In Skanderborg county, you have an additional source of information: the transcribed probate extracts at
http://brejl.dk/skift.htm. For you, the most interesting probably are
Herreds-skifteuddrag, Vrads herred
Amts-skifteuddrag, Skanderborg og Åkær amter.

In the latter I found:

612 Peder Pedersen i Rye. 14.1.1785, fol.287B.
E: Maren Knudsdatter. LV: Jens Rasmussen i Tinghuset i Rye. B: Knud 1. FM: Laurids Nielsen i Rye.

1048 Rasmus Hansen i Glarbo. 17.7.1795, fol.213.
E: Maren Knudsdatter. LV: Laurids Nielsen i Rye. B: Marie 9, Peder 7, Mette Marie 5, Maren 3. FM: Rasmus Sørensen i Tulstrup, morbror Rasmus Knudsen i Galten.

In the probate extracts for Vrads herred 1803-1821:

41 Maren Rasmusdatter i Glarbo. 11.2.1806, fol.58B.
A: mor Maren Knudsdatter g.m. Niels Terkildsen sst, søskende Maren Rasmusdatter 20, Peder Rasmussen 18, Mette Marie Rasmusdatter 16, halvbror Knud Pedersen 22. FM: Rasmus Mortensen sst, Laurids Nielsen i Rye.

The names of persons and places are standardized in order to make searching easier, e.g. Lars and Laurs are transcribed as Laurids. In stead of Marie, you sometimes have Maren, as is the case in censuses.

Abbreviations:
A: arving/arvinger 'heir/heirs'
B: barn/børn 'child/children'
E: enke/enkemand 'widow/widower'
g.m.: gift med 'married to'
FM: formynder 'child's guardian'
lbn.: løbenummer 'serial number'
LV: lavværge 'widow's guardian, spokesman'
mdr.: måneder 'months'
sst.: samme sted 'same place'

Other vocabulary:
død 'dead'
farbror 'uncle, father's brother'
første/andet/tredje ægteskab med 'first/second/third marriage to'
morbror 'uncle, mother's brother'
skifte 'probate'
søskende 'siblings'
var g.m. 'was married to'

I believe you're familiar with the CTRL+F search function in various browsers? No need to go through the lists from beginning to end

.

For place names, you can use http://www.krabsen.dk/stednavnebase/.

Best regards,
Inger T.

Erik Schaefer · 29 Nov 2012 - 18:43

Thank you!

I didn't know the probates for Skanderborg were online and that helps a lot. Ole Westermann has been VERY kind in helping me with probate records from Fyn so I can really apprecate this now. Thank you!

PS - I know probate records are not available for all counties/parishes in Denmark. Is there a list somewhere in this forum of all the probate records that are online by Herred? That might be useful if we had one list "stickied" at the top of this forum as "Useful Links".

I know that if I try searching on google, because I am not a Danish speaker, it is very difficult for me to search for "Skanderborg Probate Records" the same way I could in English.

Inger Toudal · 30 Nov 2012 - 00:41

You're welcome!

There is a list of transcribed probate extracts, not by 'herred' or 'amt' though:

http://wiki.dis-danmark.dk/index.php/Skifte

In addition, there are images of probates and probate registers - and other records - at different websites, e.g. http://www.wadschier.dk/index.php, Kilder, where Ole Westermann found a lot of information for you. There are also transcribed records, Afskrifter, at the Wadschier site.

I forgot to mention in my former posting that the probate protocols for Skanderborg amt are at the Provincial Archives of Northern Jutland (Landsarkivet for Nørrejylland) in Viborg. The fol.no in Brejl's probate extracts is a reference to the page in the probate protocol where you can find the actual probate.

Best regards,
Inger T.

Erik Schaefer · 30 Nov 2012 - 06:32

Do you know why Mogens Nielsen's wife is listed as "Madmoder" in this census record:

Skanderborg, Gjern, Dallerup, Toustrup Bye, , , 56, FT-1787
Name:    Age:    Marital status:      Occupation in household:      Occupation:      Birth place:
Mogens Nielsen   44    Gift   Hosbonde   Bonde og Gaard Beboer
Maren Thomasdatter   24    Gift   Madmoder
Niels Mogensen   5    -   1 S: af 3 ægteskab
Søren Mogensen   2    -   1 S: af 3 ægteskab
Kiersten Mogensdatter   4    -   1 D: af 3 ægteskab
Jørgen Sørensen   20    Ugift   Tieneste Folk
Else Nielsdatter   20    Ugift   Tieneste Folk
Edel Sørensdatter   13    -   Tieneste Folk

I show he was married to Maren in 1781.

Skanderborg, Gjern, Dallerup 1683-1814 opslag 203

"Madmoder" means mistress right? Unmarried? But how can that be if they were married in 1781?

I notice the 1787 census says he's been married 3 times. By 1801 he was married four times. I have only found three marriages so far:

Skanderborg, Gjern, Dallerup 1683-1814 opslag 201 (in 1770)
Skanderborg, Gjern, Dallerup 1683-1814 opslag 203 (in 1781)
Skanderborg, Gjern, Dallerup 1683-1814 opslag 204 (in 1788)

Inger Toudal · 30 Nov 2012 - 12:23

In the 1770 marriage record Niels Mogensen is a bachelor:

Thoustrup Mogens Niels: Ungk: og Kiersten Rasmusd: Pige d 7 December

Mogens Nielsen's wife Kiersten, 38 y, was buried 24 Oct. 1779 (Dallerup 1683-1814, opslag 164).

Mogens Nielsen's wife Anne Jensdatter, 30(?) y, was buried 27 Feb. 1781 (same book, opslag 165).

- their marriage could be the last entry in 1779 on opslag 202, which is illegible - or perhaps they were married in another parish.

I found these in Brejl's Gods-skifteuddrag, Gjern herred:

112 Thomas Jensen i Sorring. 8.4.1806, side 430.
E: Maren Jensdatter. LV: Hans Nielsen Elkær i Sorring. B: Jens Thomsen 40, Rasmus Thomsen 38, Maren Thomasdatter, død, var g.m. Mogens Nielsen i Tovstrup. 3B: Niels, Kirsten, Søren, Anne Marie Thomasdatter, død, var g.m. sidstnævnte Mogens Nielsen i Tovstrup. 4B: Maren 17, Peder 15, Christen 13, Anne 10, Bodil Thomasdatter g.m. Peder Thomsen i Tovstrup. (Sml. Søbygård gods lbnr.65].

- It seems that wife no 3 Maren Thomasdatter and wife no 4 Anne Marie Thomasdatter were sisters, daughters of Thomas Jensen in Sorring, Dallerup parish.

65 Maren Thomasdatter i Tovstrup. 12.10.1787, fol.186B.
E: Mogens Nielsen. B: Niels 6, Kirsten 5, Søren 2, Rasmus 8 dage. FM: Christen Sørensen sst, morfar Thomas Jensen i Sorring

42 Mikkel Hansen i Tovstrup. 4.10.1782, fol.129.
E: Birthe Jensdatter. A:
morbror Søren Mogensen i Rode, død. 11B: Kirsten Sørensdatter g.m. Jens Nielsen i Tovstrup, Sidsel Sørensdatter, død, var g.m. Anders Bilidt i Bilidthuset ved Frijsenborg. 2B: Elisabeth, Else g.m. Søren Andersen i Skørring, Abelone Sørensdatter, [skifte 17.8.1782 lbnr.27], var g.m. Anders Lundgaard i Klintrup. 5B: Helle, Else, Ellen, Christen, Søren, Margrethe Sørensdatter g.m. Jens Mikkelsen i Farre, Mogens Sørensen i Tovstrup, Niels Sørensen sst, Else Sørensdatter g.m. en brygger i Fredericia, Anne Marie Sørensdatter i København, Johanne Sørensdatter g.m. Christen Christensen i Skørring, Ellen Sørensdatter g.m. Christen Frandsen i Herskind, Anne Sørensdatter hos stedfar Knud Rasmussen i Rode,
morbror Peder Mogensen i Galten, død. 5B: Johanne Pedersdatter, død, var g.m. Søren Thomsen i Røgen. 2B: Peder, Inger, Rasmus Pedersen i Snåstrup, Frands Pedersen i Galten, Mogens Pedersen, Sidsel Pedersdatter, død, var g.m. Johan Pedersen i Sjelle. 2børn,
morbror Niels Mogensen i Tovstrup, død. 3B: Mogens Nielsen sst, Kirsten Nielsdatter g.m. Niels Aagaard i Farre, Johanne Nielsdatter g.m. Søren Rasmussen i Lyngby.

- shows Mogens Nielsen's sisters Kirsten and Johanne, and two brothers of his father Niels Mogensen: Søren and Peder.

I'm sure you can find more...

1799
Sorring Mogens Nielsens Hustru [Anne Marie Thomasdatter] død 20 begr 27 Feb - 35 Aar
(Dallerup 1683-1814, opslag 174). I cannot find a probate for Anne Marie.

Madmoder = woman of the house, housewife

- from https://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/Danish_Word_List

Best regards,
Inger T.

Erik Schaefer · 30 Nov 2012 - 15:55

Whoops I need a better translator! The one I used said "Madmor" = "mistress". When I see "mistress" I think of a woman a man is living with that is not his wife. I thought if a man was married his wife was always "Hustru". Now I know that a "mistress" is really a "housewife"

Thank you for the additional research though, I will continue to look into it

Erik Schaefer · 30 Nov 2012 - 17:40

Please ignore, I found my mistake.

Inger Toudal · 02 Dec 2012 - 23:41

Citat fra: Erik Schaefer Dato 30 Nov 2012 - 15:55
Whoops I need a better translator! The one I used said "Madmor" = "mistress". When I see "mistress" I think of a woman a man is living with that is not his wife. I thought if a man was married his wife was always "Hustru". Now I know that a "mistress" is really a "housewife"

Listening this evening to Sting's album "If on a Winter's Night...", I suddenly paid attention to these words in "Soul Cake":

God bless the master of the house
And the mistress also,
And all the little children
That round your table grow;
...

Nothing wrong with your translator, you just have to place yourself in the corresponding time frame

.

Another word for wife in Danish is "kone", which also has the meaning "woman".

Best regards,
Inger T.