Anna Marie & Carrie Christine Larsen

[Ralph Rasmussen]

About Peder - The weaker twin was baptized and named within a week of birth, the stronger one was not officially 'Peder' until his baptism in the church. 

mvh
-Ralph

[R N]

Looking at Bodil Cathrine Sørensdatter, just as an example (AO:  1826-1836 Kirke Flinterup ops 56), in the column after the parents' names are listed - is that the sponsors/godparents?  Are they generally family members?  There is a Karen Christiansdatter, which could be a sister of Bodil Cathrine's father (Søren Christiansen)?  Not sure what the words are before Karen...

[Jane C]

I'm reposting a question I had posted earlier - "In regards to the marriage records - they don't list the parents??  Ugh.  How do you go about proving who their parents are then? ... What are all the other columns on the birth and marriage records?  On the birth records, sometimes they list the names of their other children?  Or the grandparents?

Hi - Thanks Ralph for that explanation. That helps!

Hi Robin, You might need to ask the above question(s) again. I'll quickly try to help a little now since you're up.

It seems to me marriage records often list the parents. Sometimes not. I guess it's just the difference in pastors, how detailed they were in their record-keeping. I didn't notice anyone saying parents are not included in marriage records - missed that. So I'm not sure specifically how to address why you thought that. At a wedding, the "Best Man" role (in American terms) would usually be the fathers.

On birth records, the long list of names you see is the sponsors/godparents, as you say. The words also include their residence and occupation. Sponsors can be family members, even the parents themselves. Friends can also be sponsors. Sometimes it was thought good to include a person of status - an employer, estate owner, etc. - not necessarily a close friend but called upon in this ceremonial role.

That doesn't answer all you asked - but again, do bring up each point again and it'll all get covered that way.

[Jane C]

Oh I see it - Ralph more or less said he didn't know the parents of Lars Pedersen and Ane Jensdatter, even though he found their marriage record. Yes, that was too bad.

[John Wrenholt]

I'm going to let someone else answer your questions but here is some interesting info that relates to your question about Bodil Cathrine Sørensdatter and Karen Christiansdatter.

We know from the 1850 census that Søren Christiansen was born in Munke Bjergby sogn in about 1800.  When I check the churchbook birth records, I locate a Søren born to Christian Thomasen and Bodil Cathrine Nielsdatter. The date is Oct 4, 1801 (AO: 1750-1814 Munke Bjergby ops 52).

The 1801 census which I list belows show that Bodil was a widow with 3 children but that Christian Thommesen was living in the same household.

Sorø, Alsted, Munke Bjergby, Eskildstrup, , , 25, FT-1801
Bodil Catrine Nielsdatter 39  Enke(mand)   
Kirsten Sørensdatter 13  Ugift   
Peder Sørensen 10  Ugift   
Magrete Sørensdatter 7  Ugift   
Christian Thommesen 24  Ugift   
Christian Kiøbenhavner 26  Ugift   
Peder Olsen 19  Ugift   
Niels Rasmussen 24  Ugift

This is all very intesting but isn't sufficient proof for me.  After your post, I was curious so I went back and checked and sure enough in 1804 the couple had a daughter named Karen. (ops 60). Still not enough proof for me but maybe someone else can find additional information.

[Jane C]

John, this seems like a very strong lead indeed for Søren Christiansen's parents! Sounds like there are no other candidates for Søren in Munke Bjergby sogn? He is said to be born there in both the 1845 and 1850 census. I haven't been able to find anything to add...

Here is a link to Jonathan Antoine singing "The Prayer" on Britain's Got Talent. Totally irrelevant - and astonishingly beautiful.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOuJ0WxsopA&feature=share

[John Wrenholt]

It appears others have travelled down the same path:

http://www.slaegtogdata.dk/forum/index.php?action=printpage;topic=17581.0

[Jane C]

Goodness - yes exactly the same path.
!!

The 1823 marriage record in the link you found could lead to Hans Larsen as a father for Ane Hansdatter???

Tjenestekarl Søren Christian
sen i Flinterup 22 Aar
BORN ABOUT 1802

Pigen Ane Hansdatter
af Tygestrup?? 24 Aar
BORN ABOUT 1799

Gmd af Flinterup
Peder Hansen og Gmd??
Hans Larsen af Tygestrup??
**********************
1801
Sorø, Alsted, Flinterup, Parcellerne på Tystrup mark, , 6, FT-1801, B7322
Hans Larsen 32 Gift
Karen Mogensdatter 28 Gift
Karen Hansdatter 4 Ugift
Ane Hansdatter 3 Ugift
*********************

Here I am only adding to census data for Søren and Ane:
1860
Sorø, Alsted, Flinterup, Kirke Flinterup Skoledistrikt, Kirke Flinterup, Et Hus, 19 - F1, FT-1860, D5709
Søren Christensen 57 Gift Inderste. Daglejer Munke Bjergby Sogn, Sorø Amt
Ane Hansen 60 Gift Hans Kone Kirke Flinterup Sogn, Sorø Amt

[R N]

Good grief.  I don't look for a few hours and you almost have another generation uncovered.    I was trying to look at the church records I have to see if I could get any similar people for sponsors.  For the children of Søren Christiansen and Ane Hansdatter, I found the following:
-Bodil Cathrine:  the aforementioned Karen Christiansdatter, and also Hans Larsen (which Jane mentioned could be Anne's father)
-Karen Sophie:  Jens Christiansen (maybe Søren's brother?) and Hans Hansen (maybe Ane's brother?)
-Christian:  Niels Hansen (Ane's brother?) and Hans Christiansen (mentioned 2x, but with different spellings, so maybe 2 different people, maybe Søren's brother?)
-Peder (the twins):  Jens Christenson again, and Hans Hansen again

To recap this (more for my own benefit than anything else): 
-Søren's possible siblings:  Karen, Jens, Hans
-Ane's possible siblings:  Hans & Niels

Then, for Lars Pedersen and Anne Jensdatter:
-on their marriage record, two witnesses (or whatever they are) are Peder Larsen (maybe Lars' dad?) and Jens Christensen (Anne's dad?)
-Sidse:  Søren Jensen (Anne's brother?)
-Hans:  Jens Pedersen (or maybe this could be Anne's father?) and Peder Pedersen (maybe Lars' brother?)
-Peder:  Hans Jensen (Anne's brother?) and Hans Pedersen (Lars' brother?) 
-Karen:  Jens Pedersen (listed twice, maybe same as brother Hans' sponsor?)

To recap:
-Lars' possible siblings:  Peder, Hans
-Lars' possible father:  Peder Larsen
-Anne's possible siblings:  Hans
-Anne's possible fathers:  Jens Christensen or Jens Pedersen

On Ane Marie Larsen's bap record, it lists Lars Pedersen & Søren Christensen as sponsors - so that kind of verifies for me that we do have the right people (not that I didn't believe you all!). 

Working on looking up the new records posted now....THANKS!!

[R N]

Would this be the marriage record for Søren Christiansen & Ane Hansdatter that the other thread mentioned?  I can't really make it out, but I think it's the right one.  AO:  1814-1826 Kirke Flinterup, Alsted, Sorø opslag 50

[John Wrenholt]

Would this be the marriage record for Søren Christiansen & Ane Hansdatter that the other thread mentioned?  I can't really make it out, but I think it's the right one.  AO:  1814-1826 Kirke Flinterup, Alsted, Sorø opslag 50

I can't read it for sure but I think it's ops 198 (the first entry) that you're looking for.

[R N]

Oops.  That's what I meant.  I accidentally put the opslag # for his death record.  Thanks John!

[Jane C]

That's a good way to spread the sponsor clues out so they can be easily seen, Robin. : D

Ane Hansdatter - the daughter of Hans Larsen shown in census
1801 Sorø, Alsted, Flinterup, Parcellerne på Tystrup mark - not yet proven to be "your" Ane  -   

Family tree in link below states that she was born 20 Jan 1799 Kirke-Flinterup, Alsted, Sorø
and died 02 Aug 1871, buried 06 Aug 1871.
The website does list a brother Hans Hansen. The website does not list a brother Niels.
Link:
http://www.frandsen-krogh.osterbo-net.dk/Hjemmeside.web/per00569.htm
Don't know if this is "your" Ane Hansdatter- needs proofs.

So that's just a quick comment for now...

[John Wrenholt]

From the FamilySearch.org website:

Husband: Soren Christiansen 

Birth:  About 1802  Of, Kirke-Flinterup, Soro, Denmark
Christening:     
Marriage:  15 DEC 1823  Kirke-Flinterup, Soro, Denmark
Death:  07 AUG 1874  Kirke-Flinterup, Soro, Denmark
Burial:  14 AUG 1874  Kirke-Flinterup, Soro, Denmark

Wife: Ane Hansen

Birth:    Kirke-Flinterup, Soro, Denmark
Christening:  20 JAN 1799  Fflinterup, , Soro, Denmark
Marriage:  15 DEC 1823  Kirke-Flinterup, Soro, Denmark
Death:     
Burial:     
  Father:   Hans Larsen
  Mother:   Karen Mogensen

Children
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1.   Bodil Katrine Sorensen   
    Birth:  16 JUL 1827   
   Christening:  17 JUL 1827  Stenlille, , Soro, Denmark

2.   Karen Sophie Sorensen
   Birth:  14 NOV 1831   
   Christening:  08 JAN 1832  Stenlille, , Soro, Denmark   

3.   Maren Sorensen
   Birth:  06 APR 1834
   Christening:  15 JUN 1834  Stenlille, , Soro, Denmark

4.   Christian Sorensen
   Birth:  03 SEP 1838   
   Christening:  18 NOV 1838  Stenlille, , Soro, Denmark   

5.   Peder Sorensen
   Birth:  07 MAR 1842   
   Christening:  16 MAR 1842  Stenlille, , Soro, Denmark
   Death:  20 MAR 1842   
 
6.   Peder Sorensen
   Birth:  07 MAR 1842   
   Christening:  19 JUN 1842  Stenlille, , Soro, Denmark   






 

[R N]

I think I found Ane Hansdatter's bap record.  Can someone tell me what it says?  AO:  1793-1814 Kirke Flinterup, Alsted, Sorø opslag 20

[Ralph Rasmussen]

With a few gaps, Ane Hansdatters baptism:

Flinterup
...iell: (sic)
Ane

Søndag *Septuagesima havde §Huusmand Hans
Larsen paa parcellerne en datter til Daa
ben i Flinterup Kirke, som blev kaldet
baaren af gaardmand Lars Hansens kone
paa parcellerne.  Faddere Søren Olsen i Flinterup
Lars Hansens Søn Ole.  Anders Mogensens Kone
og Johan Rig(?)mands Kone.

*Note that names are rendered in italic rather than 'Danish' script.
§Smallholder on the newly created outlying private parcels.
Good to have her followed up a bit.  The 1813-1814 baptisms presented with three Anne Hansdatters.

mvh
-Ralph

[R N]

So Ralph, do you think that is the right one?

I have also found a possible birth record for Lars Pedersen (although it looks like it might be a confirmation record, too, which would not be right then...), which would fit with my theory that the Peder Larsen on his marriage record IS his father.  AO:  1799-1815 Fjenneslev, Alsted, Sorø opslag 16 right side.  Does that look right?  Father Peder Larsen and mother Cathrine Larsdatter?  What else does it say?  I have no idea what the date would be other than 1805.

[R N]

Here is the census for possible parents of Lars Pedersen.  I'm not quite sure how this works though...it says HE is married, but SHE is not?  Would that just be an error?

Sorø, Alsted, Fjenneslev, Kirke Fjenneslev, , , 11, FT-1801
Name:    Age:    Marital status:    Occupation in household:    Occupation:    Birth place:
Peder Larsen   28    Gift         
Cathrine Larsdatter   30    Ugift         
Maren Jensdatter   26    Ugift

I found the actual census record, but I'm not sure what it says.  Not really sure how to properly reference it, either, but here goes:  AO:  1801 Landsogn, Sorø, Alsted, Fjenneslev ops 11, family 11.

[John Wrenholt]

Having looked at the untranscribed record, I would definitely say it is a transcription error.

Besides Lars, the couple also had at least 3 daughters which are recorded in the 1799-1815 Fjenneslev kirkebog. Sidsel (ops 8), Anne (ops 23) who died at age 1 1/2 (ops 28) and Anne (ops 42).

[R N]

Thanks John!  At what point do you think it would be safe to say there is enough "proof"?  Or, where else would one be able to look to get more?

I have a new theory for Ane Jensdatter because I found a possible census record for her.  It would fit with Jens Christiansen being listed on their marriage record.  But it doesn't fit with her being born in Jystrup on two censuses (1845 & 1860).  1850 said Gyrstinge. 

Sorø, Alsted, Gyrstinge, Gyrstinge, , , 55, FT-1801
Name:    Age:    Marital status:    Occupation in household:    Occupation:    Birth place:
Jens Christensen   56    Gift         
Bodil Hansdatter   46    Gift         
Karen Jensdatter   9    Ugift         
Ane Jensdatter   2    Ugift   

I also found another birth record:  AO:  1793-1814 Kirke Flinterup, Alsted, Sorø ops 22 last entry - although, I'm not sure if the mother's name looks right - could someone translate it for me please?  I tried looking through Jystrup, but didn't have much luck - who ever was the record keeper there did not have very neat handwriting.

[Jane C]

Here's an Ane who could be checked to see whose daughter she is. Married Christen Hansen, probably about 1823-1824 in Gyrstinge.

1834
Sorø, Alsted, Gyrstinge, Gyrstinge by, Hus, 60, FT-1834, C6970
Niels Christophersen 42  Gift  husmand  
Sidse Nielsdatter 40  Gift  hans kone  
Ane Nielsdatter 10  Ugift  deres barn  
Kirstine Nielsdatter 8  Ugift  deres barn  
Karen Nielsdatter 4  Ugift  deres barn  
Christopher Nielsen 1  Ugift  deres barn  
Christen Hansen 54  Gift  indsidder  
Ane Jensdatter  35  Gift  hans kone  
Hans Christensen 10  Ugift  deres barn  
Søren Christensen 8  Ugift  deres barn
-------------------------------------------
Yes, it is worth noting that the 1850 census differs in giving Ane Jensdatter's birth parish as Gyrstinge instead of Jystrup. Also it says Lars and Karen are born i sognet (in Gyrstinge) but for Ane it does not say i sognet. Hmmm...

1850
Sorø, Alsted, Gyrstinge, Gyrstinge
Lars Pedersen 45 Gift Huusmand, Arbeidsmand, Huusfader I sognet
Ane Jensdatter 50 Gift hans kone Gyrstinge, Sorø Amt
Karen Larsen 11 Ugift Deres Datter I sognet

[John Wrenholt]

The untranscribed 1850 census can be found at:

1850 Landsogn, Sorø, Alsted, Gyrstinge ops 7, number 34.

I read the birthplace as Jystrup instead of Gyrstinge. 

Besides the Jystrup problem, the father that you list in the 1801 census is Jens Christensen as compared to Jens Christiansen that is listed on the marriage record.  Also he would be approx 83 years old when listed as a witness in 1828.

[R N]

Do you think the spelling really matters?  Wasn't it up to the census-taker to spell it however they thought it should be spelled?  I know that is definitely the case with US census records!  And 83 is not that old, is it?    Got any other ideas?

[Jane C]

The untranscribed 1850 census can be found at: 1850 Landsogn, Sorø, Alsted, Gyrstinge ops 7, number 34.

I read the birthplace as Jystrup instead of Gyrstinge.  

Besides the Jystrup problem, the father that you list in the 1801 census is Jens Christensen as compared to Jens Christiansen that is listed on the marriage record.  Also he would be approx 83 years old when listed as a witness in 1828.

Thank you John, for that! So now we know with certainty that there is no discrepancy in census records for "your" Ane, Robin. Ane Jensdatter, mother of "your" Peder Larsen, was born in Jystrup, about 1798-1799.

In your original recap of witnesses at Ane's wedding, you gave Jens Christensen. John corrects this to Jens Christiansen, not to rule out a man later called Christensen, necessarily, but to state the original facts correctly, and to add that discrepancy to the much weightier discrepancy of birth place.

Yes, 83 would be quite unusually old for a man in this time and place. Even in the 1801 census, Jens Christensen, 56, seems more like that Ane's grandfather than her father. More investigation would be needed about her to establish her facts - but that work would be off the track, as she is not "your" Ane.

Recap for Lars Pedersen and Anne Jensdatter, helpfully developed by you Robin:
Married in 1828 (1826-1836, opslag 176, #24) [where? - in Flinterup ?]
-on their marriage record, two witnesses are
1. Peder Larsen (maybe Lars' dad?) and
2. Jens Christensen (maybe Anne's dad?)
CHILD 1. Sidse: 1829. Søren Jensen (Anne's brother?)
    --baptised in Flinterup
CHILD 2. Hans: 1831. Jens Pedersen (maybe Anne's dad?) and Peder Pedersen (maybe Lars' brother?)
    --baptised in Flinterup
CHILD 3. Peder: 1835. Hans Jensen (Anne's brother?) and Hans Pedersen (Lars' brother?)
   --baptised in Gyrstinge - the only Peder Larsen baptized in Gyrstinge 1833-1836.
CHILD 4. Karen: 1840. Jens Pedersen (listed twice, maybe same as brother Hans' sponsor?)
    --baptised in Gystringe

We like to see the children named after the father's parents, and next the mother's parents, but of course that was not always the case (darn).

"Other ideas" would be - find an Ane born in about 1798-1799 in Jystrup! Maybe she has a first name that is hiding the middle name Ane, by which she is called...?

Another idea: to your recap, add the places where the above people are said to be living in the baptismal years to help id them. Maybe look again at the women, and keep them in mind as possible sisters or mother. I'm not promising any of this would yield any help - .

Why is Ane married in Flinterup, not Jystrup? Have her parents or surviving parent moved there?

Robin, I really admire the way you are slogging through this and building the evidence without giving up.

[R N]

Could this be a possible death/burial record for Peder Larsen, father of Ane Marie & Karen Kirstine?  AO:  1836-1889 Kirke Flinterup, Alsted, Sorø ops 55.  He would have died right before Ane Marie left to go to the US.  Maybe she decided she wanted to seek new opportunities in America for a job so she could send money back to help her mother?

Going back to Anne Jensdatter...ugh.  I'm stuck.  The Jystrup records are a mess.  About all I can make out on most of them is the name, and that's only because it's underlined.  I don't even know where to look in the paragraph for the parent's names.  Any names I came up with are just my best guess.  A lot of them look like they have two names listed with -datter in them right in a row, too - that also threw me off.  So I went through and picked out all the names with any form of Anne in them.  None of them has Anne as a middle name though.  But she could have been called by her first name, right?  I went from 1795-1802, just to be sure. 

AO:  1748-1814 Valsølille, Ringsted, Sorø
-ops 118 #9 Anne Marie, 1795 (JENS HANSEN?? - but this would make her older than she said in censuses - did women lie about their age back then, too?  )
-ops 121 #3 Anna, 1796 (Neils Madsen?)
-ops 129 #20 Anna Chatrine?, 1798 (there's something about a Christian Ludvig something in there, so I don't think it's this one, but then I don't know if that's her father's name or someone else listed...)
-ops 129 #21 Anna Sophia, 1798 (Jacob?)
-ops 129 #1 Anna Joachimina?, 1799 (father Jacob Olsen?)
-ops 130 #2 Anna Margrethe, 1799 (JENS ANDERSEN??)
-ops 130 #5 Anne Marie, 1799
-ops 131 #17 Anna, 1799 (this is the one we talked about before, I think, the daughter of Jens Rasmussen and Dorte Jacobsdatter)
-ops 131 #19 Anna Maria Fridericka, 1799 (Fr. (Friderick?) Wundemann & Ellen Marie Hansdatter?)
-ops 134 #6 Anna Maria, 1800 (another Jacob?  Maybe there is a word that looks like Jacob that I keep seeing and think is the name?)
-ops 134 #8-9 Anna (twin of Niels), 1800 (Fred. Jantsen? & Margrete?)
-ops 139 #10 Anna, 1802

Anybody wanna take a crack at this?  Pretty please?

[John Wrenholt]

I went back to take another look at the Jystrup problem.  I compared the 1850 (not transcribed) census with a census from 1870 showing Peder Larsen's family.  When I compare the place of birth for Ane Jensdatter and Peder Larsen (which we believe was born in Gyrstinge) they look awfully similar. I've tried to attach both images so you can compare (and maybe a Danish expert will give their opinion).

If it turns out that Ane was born in Gyrstringe which I now suspect is true, I apologize for any extra work my mistake caused.

[vedhæfting slettet af admin]

[R N]

No worries John!  I'm not really convinced for sure whether it's Gyrstinge OR Jystrup.  It's really hard to distinguish the difference.  I saved the images to my desktop so I could zoom, but that really didn't help much.  But if it IS Gyrstinge, then it could be the one that I listed earlier - Jens Christensen, Bodil Hansdatter, Karen Jensdatter, Ane Jensdatter.  Here's the birth record again.  AO:  1793-1814 Kirke Flinterup, Alsted, Sorø ops 22 last entry - could someone translate it for me please?  She has a sister named Karen, and her daughter's name is also Karen (maybe named after her sister).  I'm going to do some more looking to see if there were more children in this family - probably earlier, since they are a little old to be having more kids.  I also looked up the actual census (AO:  1801 Landsogn, Sorø, Alsted, Gyrstinge, ops 8 #55).  I think it says that Karen and Ane WERE their children - deres barn?  Must have been mid-life crisis kids.    As for the Jens on Ane & Lars' marriage record - maybe it was someone else.  Otherwise.....I guess it's on to trying to decipher the Jystrup records.

[Jane C]

[/b]
1860
(Peter Larsen's mother, Ane Jensdatter, is a widow, poor and dependent on her son Hans)
Sorø, Alsted, Gyrstinge, Gyrstinge Skoledistrikt, Gyrstinge, Et Hus, 52 - F3, FT-1860, D5708
Hans Larsen 29 Gift Husfader. Indsidder. Daglejer Gyrstinge Sogn, Sorø Amt
Karen Andersen 38 Gift Hans Kone Undløse Sogn, Holbæk Amt
Jens Peder Larsen 5 Ugift Deres Barn Gyrstinge Sogn, Sorø Amt Ane
Katharine Larsen 3 Ugift Deres Barn Gyrstinge Sogn, Sorø Amt
Ane Jensen 61 Enke Husfaders Moder. forsørges af Fattigvæsenet Jystrup Sogn, Sorø Amt

You guys have been busy!  

[R N]

Hi Jane - I looked at the actual census record for that one, too, and it's hard to tell what it says.  AO:  1860 Landsogn Sorø, Alsted, Gyrstinge ops 5 family 52.

[Jane C]

I'm impressed! You are being so thorough. Been gone all day - but did want to "pop in" to say  hi. : D