Impossible question?

Startet af David Møller, 18 Nov 2010 - 16:27

Forrige emne - Næste emne

David Møller

I'm trying to find out the death/burial details of Clara Marie Møller born 4 Feb 1853 at Vor Frue Kirke area. She was my great grandfather's daughter.

I have no information about her at all. I don't even know when she passed away nor if she married what her married surname was. I have no way of telling if she even remained in the same area of København.

Is it a lost cause with the only thing to do would be to scour all the AO files which would take me approximately 500 years to locate?  ::)

Bengt B

#1
Well, I started by locating Clara Marie Møller's birth

Have a look at:

AO, Vor Frue, Sokkelund, København
1849-1854, entry 253, nr 38

You might get more info from some of the other members here.

I just realised that you found it yourself and posted a request for a translation here:
http://www.slaegtogdata.dk/forum/index.php/topic,3123.0.html

Christina Wilson

The DDD census extractions would be a good place to start, if they were working. The site is having issues. But with a minimalist search in multiple counties would be where I would start.

Try looking for "lara mari" (this allows for spelling variations).
Christina

Paul Londahl-Smidt

Hi David,

I don't know if it is your Clara Marie Møller, but a Clara Marie Møller married Edvard Theobald Christensen in Helligånds, Sokkelund, København on 12 Nov 1874, opslag 20 nr 92.

Sincerely,
Paul

David Møller

thanks everybody for all your incredible help!

David

David Møller

Hi Paul!

I actually thanked everybody before I had actually seen that opslag....

Anyway, need more translation help please!

In that opslag, in the 4th column under what looks like "hvent forloverne" there's a couple of lines written in. Are they some sort of reference to each married person's father?

Also in the main heading, what looks like "Copn lerede", what does that mean?

with grateful thanks again

mvh

David

Lissa Pedersen

Hi David,

Copulerede means married.

Lissa

Bengt B

cop. - abbreviation for copuli(e)rt, meaning "married"
Cop. - abbreviation for (Latin) copia, meaning "copy"; Copulation,
meaning "marriage"; Copialbuch, meaning "cartulary; register of charters and deeds"
copulata (Latin) - bride; married (female)
copulati (Latin) - those married
copulatio (Latin) - wedding
Copulation - (official) wedding
copulatorum (Latin) - of marriages
copulatus (Latin) - bridegroom; married (male)
copulerede (Danish) - married
copuli(e)ren - marry (officially)
Copuli(e)rte - those married

Bengt B

In the 4th column it reads "hvem forloverne ere" which translates to = who the groomsmen are (bridesmaids and groomsmen)

Anni Larsen

#9
Hi David.
Is this your Clara Marie ??

http://www.fogsgaard.org
Johan Ernst Julius Frank, born 20.04.1852 Fredensborg
Died 05.11.1918 Amerikavej 1 third floor
Spouse: Clara Marie born 04.02.1853 København

Deathrecord Johan AO Kristkirke 1911-1921, opslag 92 no 93.

AO Census 1921 Amerikavej, opslag 4:
Franck, Marie, born 4.2.1853, widow
Franck, Valborg, born 27.04.1881 Fredensborg*
Franck, Otto, born 13.06.1896 København

* Fredensborg Slot sogn, Lynge-Kronborg, Frederiksborg county,
1869-1890, opslag 54 no 4.
2 of the witnesses are: Apel Møller and Christian Møller, both living in London.

Death-record Clara Marie.
Kristkirke, 1921-1933, opslag 164 no 9, died 16. jan 1923.

Regards
Anni Larsen

David Møller

Thanks again everybody for your explanations.

However I'm a little bit confused here regarding the "4th column". I think there may be some translation problems here? As I understand it in English, the man who's getting married is the bridegroom and the woman he's getting married to is called the bride. They're usually accompanied by a bridesmaid and a page boy. At the actual ceremony the man who holds the ring for the happy couple is the best man. Of course I have no idea what the Danish equivalents are as my Engelsk/Dansk dictionary is a cheap one (must ask Santa for a better one....)

Anyway, in the 3rd column, can anybody please read the words before "Edvard Theobald Christensen" and the actual two entries in the 4th column? Thanks!

Thanks again for your patience.

mvh

David

David Møller

Anni

You're a heroine!

"2 of the witnesses are: Apel Møller and Christian Møller, both living in London."

Axel and Christian Møller were brothers with Christian being my great-grandfather. I have their history after they both arrived in London, got married to English women and raised families.

Mange, mange, mange tak!!

David

Anni Larsen

Hi.
Clara Marie married 1st may 1877
Fredensborg Slot sogn, Lynge-Kronborg, Frederiksborg, 1869-1890, opslag 114 no 1.

The children Valborg and Franck are in census 1925 Amerikavej opslag 19.

Regards
Anni Larsen

Anni Larsen

More information:

Census 1901 Stengade 6 København, opslag 102:

Johan and Maria came to Copenhagen 1884 from London.
5 children mentioned, 1 born in England.

Hvilket år indgået ægteskab (which year got married): 1877.
Hvor mange levende børn i ægteskabet (how many living children in the marriage): 8.

Regards
Anni Larsen

Bengt B

@David Møller

When looking at these old records and translating some terms, you cannot apply the modern meaning of the words.

"Forlovere" in this context has to do with the couples being engaged prior to the marriage.

To put in simple terms, perhaps not the correct english ones but, the role of the "Forlovere" (betrothers) is to "promise" the priest that there is nothing that can prevent a marriage e.g. the bride and groom being closely related or inlaws.

David Møller

Hi Anni

re: the 1925 census: did you mean the children were called Valborg and Otto (brother and sister)?

This is how I read it:

Valborg Johanne (Marie) Frank born 27th April 1881 at Frederiksborg. Housemother "expediteur"(?)
Otto Georg Steen(?) Frank born 28 July 1896 at Copenhagen, brother (can't read occupation).

Thanks

David

David Møller

Hi Bengt

Many thanks for your interesting response. Yes, I'm aware sometimes when translating between languages a direct tanslation is not always possible so just give the nearest meaning! Interesting though to see the Danish/UK differences. Do they have "banns" in the Lutheran church? This is where we make announcements in the (UK) church (3 times) before the actual marriage just in case anybody has a good reason to stop the marriage taking place (i.e. bigamy, etc).

I'm not sure if banns still take place these days in the UK?

mvh

David

David Møller

Hi Anni

Thanks for the extra 1901 census information.

I'll look it up tomorrow (bedtime here!) but do thank you (and the others here) for your fantastic help.

mvh

David

Anni Larsen

#18
Re census 1925
Names ok, yes brother and sister.
Valborg job: expeditrice = shop assistant.
Otto job: kok = cook.
Birthdate, I am not sure of 28 july 1896, in census 1921 opslag 4 it says: 13.6.1896.
Boet 5 nov 1924 (=lived 5 nov 1924): Nykøbing F(alster).

Regards and good night
Anni Larsen

Bengt B

Citat fra: David Møller Dato 19 Nov 2010 - 01:17
Hi Bengt

Many thanks for your interesting response. Yes, I'm aware sometimes when translating between languages a direct tanslation is not always possible so just give the nearest meaning! Interesting though to see the Danish/UK differences. Do they have "banns" in the Lutheran church? This is where we make announcements in the (UK) church (3 times) before the actual marriage just in case anybody has a good reason to stop the marriage taking place (i.e. bigamy, etc).

I'm not sure if banns still take place these days in the UK?

mvh

David

Exactly my point, even though a bit muddled, that is the role of the "forlovere". You can actually see it at times in the churchbooks, there are 3 dates (three consecutive sundays), showing when these announcements took place. These announcements are called "lysning" in danish as well as swedish.

David Møller

I'm still over-awed at Anni's amazing discovery.

Now, I've regained my normal heartbeat rate......

Can I please ask: in that opslag 54, what are the two different dates? As far as I can make out one is 27th April and the other is 25th August 1881. At which of these two dates would Axel and Christian have been present at the event? Also, are there any shipping records of their London/Copenhagen journies? I'd love to know their route. I've often wondered if it was via Hamburg or Harwich or some other route?

mvh

David

Anni Larsen

Hi.
Birth Valborg Fredensborg 1881 opslag 54.

27. april 1881 is the date for her birth.
25. august 1881 is the date for bapt. in the church.
Axel and Christian have been present at least 25. august.

I know nothing about shipping records, sorry. Maybe others know ?

Regards
Anni

David Møller

Hi Anni

re your recent post about the 1901 census (Stengade 6, Copenhagen opslag 102) I've looked at it and am not sure if I have everybody's birthdates right as some of it is not totally clear to me. Can you please check for me?:

Hovedliste
Johan Franck 20.4.1852
Maria Franck 24.2.1853
Astrid Franck 28.10.1874
Maud Franck 10.9.1883 *
Marie Franck 27.10.1885
Ethel Franck 4.9.1887
Axel(?) Franck 30.10.1889 (have I read the name right?)
Otto Franck 13.7.1896

* will check this later on the UK Ancestry site - should be interesting!

also what does the year 1884 refer to further along the columns?

and one last question....you mentioned Johan and Maria had 8 cgildren but I don't seem to find the reference to this - where did you see it?

Many thanks

mvh

David



Anni Larsen

Census 1901.
Birthdates: Johan and Maria ok.
Astrid 28.11.1879. Maud 19.9.1883. Marie, I read 24.10.1885 (maybe 27.10 ?).
Ethel 4.9. or 9.9.1887. Axel, I read Axel too, it looks like Aael, no such name in Denmark.
Axel and Otto dates ok.

Year 1884. Column 9: Hvilket aar taget fast bopæl i kommunen ? =
Which year firm residence in the municipality.

8 children, see column 17: Hvor mange levende børn i ægteskabet ? =
How many living children in the marriage.

Regards
Anni

David Møller

Hej Anni

Many thanks again for your kind help

mvh

David