Henrik Frederik Kohler Frandsen birth 1889 on Odense

Jane C · 10 Mar 2012 - 21:31

1880
Randers, Galten, Ødum, et hus, Selling, Ødum sogn, , 8, FT-1880, C6864

Fagus Jørgensen 72 Gift husfader [husband] nyder fattigunderstøttelse [fattig = poor] Hadsten Sogn, Aarhus Amt
[ = Frands Jørgensen]

Ane Katrine Jørgensen født Andersen [born Andersen] 63 Gift hans hustru [married, his wife] Her i Sognet [born here in this parish]

Ane ?? Jørgensen 6 Ugift deres pleiebarn [foster child] Her i Sognet
Many others....

Jørgen Johan Frandsen is a widower at this time. Little Ane could be his child, sent to live with his parents.

Bob Burns · 15 Mar 2012 - 05:06

Jane - You have really helped me in my family search, particularly since I don't know much Danish (although I am using Google Translator to help me a bit). I therefore thank you so very much for your extensive efforts on my behalf, plus I am thankful to Lissa for all she provided earlier. Finally, I also appreciate the inputs of Homer and John. To all, a huge thank you!

I do have a follow up question, if I may. As I follow Søren Christen Poulsen through the various censuses, I notice that his last name changes to Sørensen and then back again. We also lose him, at least living with his daughter in her household (he could easily be living separately with Ane Marie).

1845 SC Poulsen 30 farmer
1850 SC Poulsen 35 farmer
1860 SC Poulsen 45 skipper
1870 SC Sørensen 54 parish bailiff [?name/age-depends on enumeration date/new occupation?]
1880 missing (maybe just in this list)
1890 SC Poulsen 74 parish bailiff/officer/sheriff

Thanks for any thoughts.

Bob

John Wrenholt · 15 Mar 2012 - 06:38

He was probably missed in 1880 census because the spelling of his name was variant:

Hjørring, Læsø, Vesterø, [Vesterø Sogn], , Hus, 220 (2), FT-1880
Poul Anders Andersen 38 Gift Husfader Landbrug Vesterø Læsø
Gjertru[d] Karen Sørensen 37 Gift hans Hustru Vesterø Læsø
Ane Larsine Andrine Andersen 13 Ugift Deres Børn Vesterø Læsø
Anlura Severin Andersen 4 Ugift Deres Børn Vesterø Læsø
Søren Kristen Poulsen 64 Gift Sognefoged, forsørges af Husfaderen Vesterø
Ane Marie Nielsen 72 Gift hans Hustru, forsørges af Husfaderen Byrum

Bob Burns · 15 Mar 2012 - 16:34

Thank you, John. Yes, Jane was focusing on Ingeborg, on my behalf.

It looks like Søren and his wife (2nd) are living with his daughter Gjertrud, although she has a different middle name, Karen, than in prior censuses (Marie).

Jane C · 15 Mar 2012 - 16:51

Hi Bob -

Thanks for the help John.

Yes, that must be "our" Søren Christen Poulsen in 1880. As Bob says, I was focused on Ingeborg. Below I've added two more census years for Søren.

I hope John, you read the following and have a thought about the 1870 name problem.
Søren Christen Poulsen is called Søren Christen Sørensen in 1870. Why? Good question, one that certainly needed to be asked, and I didn't think to address it earlier.

This is not normal Danish naming practice. It's a different name for no reason. So maybe it's not the right guy - but it kinda has to be him, since the whole family is with him in all these years, no one else in the census fits, etc. Family history records throw these curve balls all the time, making a record that could be secure proof into conjecture/guessing.

Possible explanations:

This is NOT the right family, and if so, we haven't found our family in 1870. I think we did find them, this is them.

Sørensen is the surname of the children, and the census taker could have misunderstood, thinking it the surname of the whole family. This answer has my vote.

I suppose it is possible that Søren actually did use that Sørensen surname for a time. The Danish government was passing laws through the early 1800s to get Danish people to give up the patronymic naming system. A family was to choose a fixed surname - fixed in the sense that modern American surnames are fixed (wife's surname changes to husband's surname). Could it be that Søren thought to use the Sørensen surname for the whole family, but then changed his mind? Decided to leave the fixed surname to the children and following generations, but not apply it to himself/his wife. Maybe but it's a bit of a stretch.

Others in the forum may have additional or better answers.

Sorry this is such a long note. It's hard to write short!

1834
Hjørring, Læsø, Vesterø, Vesterø, en gaard, 76, FT-1834, A2769
Poul Nielsen Busk 51 Gift sognefoged og jordbruger [parish bailiff, farm owner]
Ingeborg Sørensdatter 57 Gift hans kone [married, his wife]
Johanne Kirstine 28 Enke [widow] hans datter [his daughter], arbeiderske
[some kind of farm worker?]
Peder Boie Nielsen 7 Ugift hendes søn
Mette Kirstine 26 Ugift husfaderens øvrige børn (se broder nedenfor)
[housefather's other child, see brother below]
Søren Christen 19 Ugift husfaderens øvrige børn
[Mette and Søren are siblings -both are children of Poul - but not of this mother, I think...]

1850
Hjørring, Læsø, Vesterø, Vesterø, Læsø, 11 en gaard, 11-F1, FT-1850, A2772
Søren Christen Poulsen 35 Gift [married] eier af gaarden, [owner of the farm] jordbruger [farmer - various terms for farmer indicate land ownership etc., and the Danish forum members could help finetune the meaning, but jordbruger is a well-respected status for a farmer, I think], huusfader [housefather/father of the household] i Sognet [born in this parish]
Ane Marie Nielsdatter 41 Gift hans kone [his wife] Byrum
Lars Dahm Larsen 17 Ugift [unmarried] deres barn [their child] i Sognet
Ingeborg Sørensdatter 14 Ugift deres barn i Sognet
Lars Peter Sørensen 12 Ugift deres barn i Sognet
Gjertrude Marie Sørensdatter 8 Ugift deres barn i Sognet
Poul Sørensen 6 Ugift deres barn i Sognet
Ane Sørine Sørensdatter 5 Ugift deres barn i Sognet
Juline K. Sørensdatter 2 Ugift deres barn i Sognet
Gjertrud C. Bjørnsdatter 68 Enke [widow] aftægtskone [retirement wife/retired person provided for by this family] Byrum

Jane C · 15 Mar 2012 - 17:21

This could be Poul Nielsen Busk
1787
Hjørring, Læsø, Vesterø, Vesterø, 3die Lægd, 76, FT-1787, A2761
Niels Poulsen Busk 47 gift husbond boelsmand [small farmer]
Susanne Pedersdatter 41 gift madmoder [mistress of the house]
Søren Nielsen 4 - af 1te ægteskab [child of first marriage]
Poul Nielsen 2 - af 2det ægteskab [child of second marriage]
Else Poulsdatter 79 enke - inderste
Ane Chrestensdatter 31 ugift inderste

In this case, Poul Nielsen can easily be Poul Nielsen Busk. A person could commonly be known by a first name, patronymic name, and identifier name. The first name and patronymic name could be used alone, or the first name and identifier name could be used alone. That's normal. And maybe you are aware of this already. I don't know what busk means, but my guess is some kind of terrain/physical geography identification. Other common identifiers are an occupation, or a place/political geography name. Maybe John can help.

A link to discussion of this family - I don't read Danish.

http://www.dis-danmark.dk/forum/read.php?6,340816,472385

Excerpt:
Sognefoged [bailiff], gårdejer [some kind of farmer] Poul Nielsen Busk.
Født: 1784 [Born 1784]
Død: 06.06.1840 i Vesterø, [Died 06 JUNE 1840 in Vesterø]
gift med: [married to]
Ingeborg Sørens Datter (Bouet). [Bouet is that option last identifier name]
Født: 1776 [She's born 1776]
Død: 14.05.1866 i Vesterø. [She died 14 MAY 1866 in Vesterø]

De ejede gården i Vesterø, som senere blev kaldt Vennebjerggård [Their farm in Vesterø was called Vennebjerggård?]. Ingeborg Sørensdatter døde på gården som aftægtskone [Ingeborg Sorensdatter died at the farm as a retired aftaegtskone, a person who is entitled to live there and be provided for as part of a deal in handing over the ownership of the farm to another] hos datteren [in the house of her daughter] Mette Pouls Datter Busk og svigersønnen [and son-in-law] Niels Thorsen.

Der var 3 børn [they had three children], - i søn og 2 døtre [one son and two daughters].

1. Niels Poulsen Busk,
2. Johanne Kristine Pouls Datter Busk,
3. Mette Pouls Datter Busk.

Jane C · 15 Mar 2012 - 17:53

http://www.dis-danmark.dk/forum/read.php?4,415333,415505

The above link has a discussion of the history, location, and naming of Vennebjerggård in Vesterø. Something about the farm being located by/at the place of "Kongevejen i Vesterø" (the King's Highway).

Both these links (re. Busk family) have postings by cousins of yours, Bob.

Jane C · 15 Mar 2012 - 20:31

http://pnanedb.dk/Luca1003.htm

To continue backward in the family history of Søren Christen Poulsen, his mother seems to be Ingeborg Sørensdatter, age 57 in 1834 (I have not looked at the church record, only the census and the website link. Perhaps you can look at the original per info Homer posted earlier). I believe Ingeborg's father is Søren Christensen Bouet (see link above) and her mother is Ane Pedersdatter Dam (per census and link above).

Søren Christensen Bouet born 1740 i Vesterø, Læsø, Hals, Danmark, baptized 10 JULY 1740 i Vesterø church, Vesterø, Læsø, Hals, Danmark. Died 1792 i Vesterø, Læsø, Hals, Danmark and buried 14 FEB 1792 i Vesterø churchyard, Vesterø, Læsø, Hals, Danmark.
Married 01 JAN 1763 i Vesterø kirke, Vesterø, Læsø, Hals, Danmark to
Ane Pedersdatter Dam born 1738 i Vesterø, Læsø, baptised 20 JULY 1738 i Vesterø church, Vesterø, Læsø, Hals, Danmark. Died 28 MAY 1819 i Vesterø; buried 01 JUNE 1819 i Vesterø churchyard

[Vesterø sogn - C076__B_024_K08-15-A Opslag 253 i AO-Kirkebog; C076_B_025_K03-48-A Opslag 164]

1801
Hjørring, Læsø, Vesterø, Vesterø, 4.lægd, 27, FT-1801, A2766
Anna Pedersdatter Dam 64 enke huusmoder lever af sit jordbrug
Kirsten Sørensdatter 37 ugift -
Anna Katrine Sørensdatter 28 ugift -
Ingeborg Sørensdatter 24 ugift [single] hendes datter [Anna's daughter]
Anna Kirstine Johnsdatter 4 - datters barn [Ingeborg's daughter, born before Ingeborg's marriage]

1845
Hjørring, Læsø, Vesterø, Vesterø, en gaard, 73, FT-1845, A2775
Niels Thorsen Nielsen 34 gift stedets ejer, jordbruger Læsøe
Mette Kirstine Poulsdatter 36 gift hans hustru Læsøe
Christine Nielsdatter 1 gift deres datter Læsøe
Ane Nielsdatter 17 ugift tjenestepige [servant] Læsøe
Ingeborg Sørensdatter 69 enke [widow] aftægtskone Læsøe

Jane C · 15 Mar 2012 - 21:15

Christen Sørensen Bouet born about 1708 i ??, baptised ?? i ??, died 1771 i Vesterø, Læsø, Hals, Danmark and buried 29 AUG 1771 i Vesterø kirkegaard, Vesterø, Læsø, Hals, Danmark. Married 06 JAN 1732 i Vesterø kirke, Vesterø, Læsø, Hals, Danmark to

Ane Larsdatter born about 1704 i ??, baptised ?? i ??, died 1773 i Vesterø, Læsø, Hals, Danmark and buried 06 SEP 1773 i Vesterø kirkegaard, Vesterø, Læsø, Hals, Danmark.

Their child: Søren Christensen Bouet born 1740
Baptismal source AO_1646-1813_Ops lag_255
-----------------------------------------------------------
Søren Christensen Bouet born about 1676 i ??, baptised ?? i ??, died 1730 i Vesterø, Læsø, Hals, Danmark and buried 01 MAR 1730 i Vesterø kirkegaard, Vesterø, Læsø, Hals, Danmark.

Kirsten Nielsdatter Bouet born about 1669 i ??, baptised ?? i ??, died 1738 i Vesterø, Læsø, Hals, Danmark and buried 12 JUN 1738 i Vesterø kirkegaard, Vesterø, Læsø, Hals, Danmark.

Their child: Christen Sørensen Bouet born about 1708

-----------------------------------------------------------

Peder Bøjesen Dam born 1711 i Vesterø, Læsø, Hals, Danmark, baptized about 1711 i Vesterø kirke, Vesterø, Læsø, Hals, Danmark, died 1799 i Vesterø, Læsø, Hjørring, Danmark and buried 28 MAR 1799 i Vesterø kirkegaard, Vesterø, Læsø, Hjørring, Danmark. [Sources: see link below] Peder Bøjesen Dam was married 11 FEB 1738 i Vesterø kirke, Vesterø, Læsø, Hals, Danmark to

Kirsten Madsdatter Dam born 1703 i Vesterø, Læsø, Hals, Danmark, baptised 14 JAN 1703 i Vesterø kirke, Vesterø, Læsø, Hals, Danmark, died 1752 i Vesterø, Læsø, Hals, Danmark and buried 05 APR 1752 i Vesterø kirkegaard, Vesterø, Læsø, Hals, Danmark.

Their child: Ane Pedersdatter Dam b 1738 married to Søren Christensen Bouet b 1740

-----------------------------------------------------------
Bøje Madsen was born 1682 i Vesterø, Læsø, Hals, Danmark, baptised 03 DEC 1682 i Vesterø kirke, Vesterø, Læsø, Hals, Danmark, died 31 JAN 1716 i Vesterø and buried 19 APR 1716 i Vesterø kirkegaard. Married [JAN?] 1707 i Vesterø kirke, Vesterø, Læsø, Hals, Danmark to

Ane Larsdatter Thuren born 1677 i Vesterø, Læsø, Hals len, Danmark, baptised 02 DEC 1677 i Vesterø kirke, Vesterø, Læsø, Hals len, Danmark, died 1760 i Vesterø and buried 20 APR 1760 i Vesterø kirkegaard.

Their child: Peder Bøjesen Dam born abt 1711

---------------------------------------------------------------
Mads Bøjesen born about 1652, died 1730 i Vesterø, Læsø, Hals, Danmark and buried 03 SEP 1730 i Vesterø kirkegaard, Vesterø, Læsø, Hals, Danmark. Married 22 OCT 1682 i Vesterø kirke to

Maren Pedersdatter born about 1645, died 1718 i Vesterø, Læsø, Hals, Danmark and buried 31 JAN 1718 i Vesterø Kierkegaard.

Their child: Bøje Madsen born 1682
-----------------------------------------------------------

http://pnanedb.dk/Luca1005.htm#2233

As always, one is cautioned to check original records when looking at the research of others.

Jane C · 15 Mar 2012 - 21:55

The website I noted is © Preben Nørgaard.

Now a note in case you want to follow up with Dansk Demografisk Database, on the massive number of leads. From your question it seemed to me you were uncertain how to search the census. I think Homer or someone else described the churchbook archives earlier...?

http://www.ddd.dda.dk/kiip/asp/alle_opl.asp?kipnr=B3705&lbnr=1063&begivenhed=D%E5b

Dansk Demografisk Database includes census records, and a few churchbook records (and others). Some years from Vesterø, Læsø are included. See above link; honestly I find it confusing and I myself seek help with churchbook records.

For the census, go to www.ddd.dda.dk
Click the British flag above right for English.
In the new page that appears, choose red box, Census.
In the new page, find "Search for individuals" and select "Autocheck of database."
In the new page, select county Hjørring (clicking the little black arrow at right of the county box).
Then select district (Læsø appears as an option when you click the black arrow).
You can then select parish (Vesterø), year, age of the person, etc. The more info you fill in, the fewer returns you'll get with your search. You'll vary your search criteria, case by case. The maximum the database will give you is 250 hits, even if many more appear in the database, so narrowing down the search sensibly is often important.

This database is not forgiving of spelling variations. Read the info (at right) re. use of wildcards to allow for variations (for example, in 1787 you'll find Peder Bojesen Dam, who is Peder Bøjesen Dam).

Jane C · 15 Mar 2012 - 23:06

I wondered who Gjertrude C. Bjørnsdatter was, living with the Søren Christen Poulsen family in 1845 (she is age 64), 1850 (she's 68), and 1860 (she's 79).

1845
Søren Christen Poulsen 35
Ane Marie Nielsdatter 41 Gift hans kone
Lars Dahm Larsen 17 Ugift deres barn - their child, but surname indicates he must be HER child

1834
Hjørring, Læsø, Vesterø, Vesterø, en gaard, 72, FT-1834, A2769
Lars Larsen Dam 55 Gift jordbruger
Gjertrud Katrine Bjørnsdatter 52 Gift hans kone
Lars Larsen Dam 24 Gift deres søn, sømand [seaman]
Ane Marie Kirstine Nielsdatter 25 Gift hans kone
Lars Larsen Dam 1 Ugift deres søn
Kirsten Larsdatter 21 Ugift huusfaderens datter

It seems Søren Christen Poulsen's wife Ane was married before, to Lars Larsen Dam, and Gjertrud Katrine Bjørnsdatter is her mother-in-law. Thus Søren Christen Poulsen has his wife's first husband's mother living with him as an "aftægtskone." This suggests Søren and Ane have inherited the farm of her (former) in-laws.