Fredrick Christensen abt 1842

[John Wrenholt]

Marie Kirstine Kiebitz:

Birth Record

AO: 1813-1836 Svenstrup, Als Nørre, Sønderborg ops 34

Confirmation

AO: 1813-1836 Svenstrup, Als Nørre, Sønderborg ops 89

Death

AO: 1820-1862 Nordborg, Als Nørre, Sønderborg ops 244

[Lis Nielsen]

I do not think we can do more right now.

  I hope that jennifer Cooks soon return to us whit the things we ask for.

just to summarize.

Inger ask for the names of Frederick's children in Australia
and I have previously asked whether she might have a picture or a letter / document written in a strange language.....


I'm waiting to see whether she will soon write again and do nothing more about it right now.

lis

[Jane C]

Same for me.

[Inger Buchard]

I wonder whether it's any use to help Australians in this forum?
The visit of our beloved couple Frederik and Mary is over some days ago, so the person who asked ought to have time to show up in this thread again - ?

Inger

[Jane C]

Sometimes I have wondered about starting a thread about forum expectations for posters. The forum expects to help posters (or try to help anyway), and in turn the forum expects from posters that they....

If posters place a request for help and then do not return in a timely fashion (or do not return at all, in some cases), that could have a chilling effect on the forum's enthusiasm and willingness to pitch in.

I find it amazing - the level of expert help here! - and the speed with which it is forthcoming! I read the forum myself to watch and learn. One would hate to see the enthusiasm of forum helpers, especially you experts, be diminished.

[Jennifer Cocks]

Oh my goodness!
I have been far far away and not anywhere close to a computer.  Now I see all this information posted - amazing.  I have not had time to look at it all but wanted to post and say a BIG BIG THANK YOU for all the time and effort everyone has put in
Jenny

[Jennifer Cocks]

Have read all posts now (but need to go back through again).  Apologies to all for not getting back to you earlier - I unfortunately could not.  So, in answer to your questions:
1.  No, I do not have any photos or letters relating to Frederick
2.  Frederick Christensen married Mary Anne Tauberdy (from Ireland) in Sydney, Australia in 1870
3.  Children:  Alvina Christina Christensen 1871, Mary Bridget (Mother's mother's name) Christensen 1873, Frederick Christensen 1875, Ernest Christensen bef. 1878 (not found) d. 1878, Florence Eve Lilian Christensen 1879.
4.  I have found 43 listings of a Frederick Christensen on boats in Australian waters between 1865 and 1873.  I know for a fact that my Frederick Christensen arrived (possibly not the first time) in Australian waters in 1867 on the boat the Herschel.  He could well have arrived to Australia earlier working as a seaman on the boat the Rifleman in January 1865.  And it is possible that he worked as a seaman on Australian boat the Alexandra (doing the sea mail run between Sydney, Melbourne, Adelaide and Western Australia and back) from November 1865 until March 1866.  It is then possible that he got on a boat working as a seaman and went back to Europe OR America before getting another seaman position on the boat the Herschel, arriving in Australia February 1867.
5.  I believe he worked as a seaman on the boats the Rangatira and the Alexandra taking mail between Sydney, Melbourne, Adelaide & Western Australia from March 1868 until 1871.
6.  Frederick then settled down in Sydney was a fishmonger (seller of fish) and owned an oyster bar (restaurant) in George Street, Sydney - while bringing up the family.
7. The boat the Herschel was registered in Bremen, Germany.  In October 1866 it was in New York picking up cargo.  The Herschel set sail and took 56 days to get to Adelaide, Australia (where it offloaded cargo) and then headed to Sydney (where Frederick obviously got off and decided to stay!)
8.  In Sydney, Frederick considered himself Danish (not Prussian or German).  He headed up "Danish strongman" teams for carnival competitions and "Danish" rowing crews. 

I am so excited by all the information you have found and am about to reread (and look up maps!).

One interesting piece of information (possibly completely unrelated):  One day (just prior to my original post) I randomly "googled" Frederick Christensen and found a photo of a World War 1 & World War 2 German Officer - Frederick Christensen - who was the spitting image of my now deceased grandfather (who was grandson of the Frederick Christensen I am looking for).  It nearly gave my mother a heart attack!  The likeness was so unbelievable (even the ears) that I researched this gentleman to see if there was any connection (he was born and died Wyk auf Fohr) but could not find anything concrete. 

Once again, please accept my apologies
Jenny

[Jennifer Cocks]

Whoops!
Missed the last two children in my post:
Arthur B Christensen 1881 (d. 1882), Clara G A Christensen 1883

[Jennifer Cocks]

Just relooking at Frederick's death certificate  in 1894.  The informant has given the information that Frederick has been in the Colony of New South Wales for 30 years.  Which supports the theory that he possibly first arrived in 1865 on the Rifleman, worked in Australia for a year or so, headed back to Europe (or New York maybe) before finally getting a job on the Herschel (in either Hamburg or New York), arriving in Sydney in 1867 and staying.  When applying for Naturalisation he possibly just put the year of the last time he arrived in Australia.

I've looked at the maps and Nordborg, Sonderborg (sorry I don't know how to get the diagonal slash in the "o"s) seems to "fit".

So, am trying to put all the info together:

Friederich Christensen b. 15.03 1843 (bap. 29.03) Nordborg Parish, Sonderborg, was illegitimate son of Maria Kirstine Kiebitz and alleged father Johan Christensen (from Sleswig).
He had an older sister - Kirstine Sophie Christensen b Jul 6 1840 Svenstrup, Als Norre, Sonderborg (possibly illegitimate also?? to same father??)

Marie, Christina and Freidrich were living in Nordborg in 1845.  No father or husband apparent in the census.  Is this correct?

Marie (mother) dies January 18, 1847 in Nordborg leaving two young children (who would have to be looked after by someone). Marie's parents were Carl Friedrik Kiebitz and Helena Hollandsmann.

Frederick is confirmed March 1857 Nordborg.  Frederick is living in Ibid with .... unknown.  I will have to search the maps again.

Frederick DOES have a godfather called Hans Christensen.  How do we know this?  Is this listed in the parish register? I like this information very much as this COULD be the Hans listed as his father on his death certificate.  I wonder if Frederick was bought up by his godfather following the death of his mother?

I don't quite understand the 1845 and 1803 census information posted as yet - need some time to work this information out.

I am going to www.arkivalieronline.dk to see where you found all this.
jenny

[Jennifer Cocks]

I've been to www.arkivalieronline.dk and looked up all the info you have posted.  I have no idea how you all managed to find this information .... incredible - I can't work out how you did it.

I have looked at:
Frederick's baptism County Sønderborg, Parish Nordborg F 1840-1862 opslag 17.  Thank you so much for the translation posted as I would have been completely lost without that. Also found the confirmation  March 8, 1857 Nordborg parish register for years 1855 to 1881 ops 7 (not living in Ibid - that means "as above" or something in latin - living in Nordborg).

I do have a question (if you have the time):
1.  I looked at Frederick's sister Kirstine Sophia Christensen (born Jul 6, 1840) and the records posted
Birth Record: AO: 1821-1869 Svenstrup, Als Nørre, Sønderborg ops 146
Confirmation Record: AO: 1855-1881 Nordborg, Als Nørre, Sønderborg ops 81

I have no knowledge of Danish at all but does the info listed on the above two records indicate her name as Kirstine Sophia Frederikson? and her mother as Maria Kirstine Frederickson (nee Keibitz)?  Does this mean Maria Kirstine was married at some point to the father of Kirstine Sophia? Help please - I am struggling to translate and/or understand what these 2 records indicate.

Off to track down mother Marie now with the info you have all posted. Plus am crawling over maps - so excited.

You are all wonderful
jenny

[Lis Nielsen]

I translate Kristine confirmation for you .....

Kirstine Sophie Christensen in Nordborg.

Illegitimate daughter of Marie Kirstine Friederiksen born Kiebitz-I Tarup-death in Nordborg.

born July 6, 1840 baptized by Reverend Ahlmann, Svendstrup 29 november 1858.

Judgements of Knowledge, good in knowledge, very good behavior.

Vaccinated August 6, 1841 by Kryger.

You're right she should have married a Friederiksen or her mother might marry him and he has  adopted her, but I think the first.

vh Lis

[Ralph Rasmussen]

I read the confirmation a bit differently.

Illegitimate daughter of Marie Kirstine Friederichsen 0R [sive] Kiebitz of Tarup, since dead in Nordborg.

Born July 6, 1840, according to a certificate by pastor Ahlmann, dated Svenstrup November 29, 1853 (or 1858).

The baptism has more data:  Kirstine Sophie Christesen (not ChristeNsen), baptized July 22, (mother) Marie Kirstine Friederichs, an illegitimate daughter of Helena Thomsdatter, alleged father of the child Friederich Christesen (?????) [I don't recognize that word]

The remark in the baptismal record reads in part 'Floozy [i.e. usually mother of a previous illegitimate child] returned home pregnant from ?????, where she had served three years for Hans Smed'.

mvh
-Ralph

[Jennifer Cocks]

So, in 1840, we have mother, Marie Kirstine KIEBITZ  whose name changes to Marie Kirstine FRIEDRICHS in 1840 (and is noted as illegetimate daughter of Helena THOMSDATTER) when her illegitimate daughter, Kirstine Sophie Christesen, is baptised.  Alleged father of Kirstine Sophie Christesen is FRIEDRICH Christesen who, we believe, Marie Kirstine probably met while working for a Hans Smed.

Question:  The only reasons that Marie Kirstine would have changed her surname from Kiebitz to Friedrichs would be 1. marriage and 2. using an alias.  However, my reading of how Danish surnames "work" confuses me a bit so am unsure.

In 1843 Marie Kirstine KIEBITZ has another illegitimate child - a son Frederick Christensen, alleged father this time is a JOHAN Christensen.  Mother is back to using her maiden name - KIEBITZ.

In 1847, Mother Marie Kirstine dies (haven't had time to look this record up yet, but according to all your wonderful posts ...) listed as illegitimate daughter of Marie's parents were Carl Friedrik Kiebitz and Helena HOLLANDSMANN.

QUERY:  Marie Kirstine's mother seems to have changed her surname as well (from THOMSDATTER in 1840 to HOLLANDSMANN in 1847)

In 1850, daughter Kirstine Sophie FRIEDERICHSEN (changed from baptism where is was CHRISTESEN) is confirmed.  Mother dead. Kirstine is noted as illigitimate daugher of Marie Kirstine FRIEDERIKSEN born KIEBITZ. 

In 1855, son Frederick Christensen is confirmed.  Noted as illigitimate son of dead mother Marie Kirstine KIEBITZ

Why would the Mother, Marie Kirstine have all these surname changes?  Confusing for me.

Thank you for all your help.  Will now try to squeeze in a quick internet visit to look up all the records for Marie Kirstine Kiebitz as previously listed.
Jenny

[Jennifer Cocks]

Woke up last night thinking about my Frederick's children's names (in relation to his family) and had a couple of thoughts:
(Note:  mother:  Mary Ann Tauberdy, maternal grandmother:  Bridget Tobin, maternal grandfather:  John Tauberdy.  Only known sibling of Mary Ann Tauberdy:  Ellen)

1st child Alvina Christina Christensen 1871 - I have no idea where the "Alvina" comes from - its an extraordinary name at the time in Australia.  Is there a Danish equivalent?
2nd child Mary Bridget Christensen 1873 - comes from Mother (Mary Ann) and maternal Grandmother (Bridget)
3rd child Frederick Christensen 1875 - obvious
4th child Ernest Christensen bef. 1878 (not found) d. 1878 - possibly comes from Ernst?
5th child Florence Eve Lilian Christensen 1879 (my great grandmother) - extraordinary name
6th child Arthur B Christensen 1881 (d. 1882) - I don't know what the "B" stands for
7th child Clara G A Christensen 1883 - Clara is a bit unusual, don't know what the "G" or "A" stands for

The first child's name may hold a clue ..... just have no idea what the clue is!!
The 2nd & 3rd children's names make sense to me.  And I need to further investigate the "middle" names of 6th & 7th child.

This is very interesting for me and my mother will be fascinated
Jenny

[Ralph Rasmussen]

There was a lovely long transition period when surnames could be assigned about four ways, without any intent to mislead anyone.  Obviously it can be a bit confusing seen at a distance.

1.  Many, if not most, children born before 1850 had a surname formed by adding -sen to the father's first name.  This was true even when the mother was not married.

2. Gradually, children were known by the -sen surname of their father, if he is named in the record.  It is probably after the period you will be researching that children of unmarried mothers were known by their mother's surname.

3. Inherited surnames of the father, not ending in -sen were used in the record.  Either the child was known by that surname, or the record keeper chose it over a -sen surname.

4. Because the crown encouraged the use of permanent surnames,  those that were not protected by law or custom were taken up by choice or by chance.  A place name or familiar nickname became now a surname.  The use of place names as if surnames on a somewhat temporary basis was obvious for men drawn into active military service.  Think of the number of Jens Jensens in a group of 200 soldiers. 

Ergo, for example, Hellene, who is Thomas Hollander's daughter, is Hellene Thomasdatter/Thomassen, Hellene Hollander, or Hellene Thomasdatter Hollander.

Med venlig hilsen
-Ralph

[Jennifer Cocks]

My goodness, that would make tracking people in this period mind boggling!  That just increases my amazement at what people have managed to track down for me. Mind you, although I cannot read Danish at all, it appears from what I have looked at (via the references posted) that the Danish records are meticulous!

I have looked at the birth register and confirmation entries for Marie Kristine Kiebitz (ie, looked, squinted, tried to work out what the handwriting says)
AO: 1813-1836 Svenstrup, Als Nørre, Sønderborg ops 34
AO: 1813-1836 Svenstrup, Als Nørre, Sønderborg ops 89
This is what I think it says:
Illegitimate
Mother:  Helena, who's father is/was Thomas Hollanderi. 
Father:  Carl Frid Kiebitz.

This seems to be verified in the death record of Marie Kristine Kiebitz AO: 1820-1862 Nordborg, Als Nørre, Sønderborg ops 244.  And now I understand why Helena seems to be listed with a variety of surnames - Thomsdatter, Hollandsmann in the postings.

But Who is the Hans Wriburg who is listed on the birth register entry? Is he a godfather?

I would much appreciate a translation of both the entries above.  Am completely lost when looking at Danish and wonder if I should have studied German a little more studiously at school a long long time ago.

Thank you
Jenny

[Jane C]

Jennifer, you are looking at a baptism record (birth dates are noted in baptismal records). There are godparents (faddere) listed. Is Hans in the column for faddere? (see label at top of columns).

[Jennifer Cocks]

The column I am looking at is the fourth column labelled (forgive me) - "Boratbrenes Ravn, Grand, Paeddering os Boepael".  When I type these words into my Danish/English translater it basically laughs at me - but that is what I read.
The text then reads:  afg: Hans Wriburg (decision??) and goes on to list the parents: Of Torps, Helena Thomas Hollanderi father ...... out of wedlock ..... alleged father Carl Frid Kiebitz father (I think)

The fifth column "Baddernes Ravn, Etand" is the godparents column I believe - and I haven't tried to read that column yet.

Jenny

[Ralph Rasmussen]

For an overview of the old style longhand and Gothic/fraktur printed letters, try this:

http://www.library.yale.edu/cataloging/music/fraktur.htm

mvh
-Ralph

[Jennifer Cocks]

The handwriting/lettering link is Fantastic help
Thank you
jenny