Fredrick Christensen abt 1842

[Jennifer Cocks]

Help needed to find birth of a Fredrick Christensen.
Born in Denmark about 1842
Father:  Hans
Mother:  Christina
Was a seaman
Worked as a seaman on a vessel, Hershel, which arrived in Australia in 1867 where he worked on boats, married and then had a fish shop/oyster bar in Sydney.  Died in Australia.

Family myth is that Fredrick always considered himself Danish (as opposed to Prussian)

Possibly had an older brother named Jens (born about 1838?)

This is all the information I have.

Any help appreciated

cocksie
from Melbourne, Australia

[Lissa Pedersen]

Hi Jennifer,

I just add this link, where you also have a posting about Fredrick Christensen: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,569880.0.html

Lissa

[Jane C]

In your other post, you say:

"I am looking for my 2nd great grandfather - Frederick/Fredrik Christensen b. about 1842.
Death certificate lists parents as Hans & Christina.
The steps that have led me to Schlesen:
1.  Death certificate in Australia in 1894 gives me approx birth year, place listed as Denmark and parents names
2.  Naturalization certificate in 1875 gives boat (Herschel), arrival in Australia (1867) and native place as Australia
3.  Crew list of vessel, Herschel, arrival in 1867 lists Fridrich Christensen, seaman, native place (as deciphered by Roots chatterers) as possibly Schlesien.
4.  Read up a bit on history of Denmark & Prussia in period between 1840 - 1867 and then trawled through atlas, google maps etc to find a place in the area that may have been considered Danish in that period of time ..... and found Schlesen."

Maybe it can help to post this here?

[Ralph Rasmussen]

The spelling must be Schleswig (German, English) or Slesvig (Danish).  The first trolling through the 1845 census for 'Sydslesvig' didn't reveal Frederick or his father Hans.  1845 is also the first year with a listing of birthplaces, largely in terms of the birth parish.

'med venlig hilsen'
-Ralph

[Inger Buchard]

If it's Slesvig you must remember to search the 4 counties in Nordslesvig: Haderslev, Aabenraa, Sønderborg, Tønder.
Frederik has many spellings in this area: Friedrich, Fridrich, Friederich, Friderich, Frederik, Friderik ....

Inger

[Lis Nielsen]

this is what I can find on FamilySearch

Friedrich Christiansen
Denmark Baptisms, 1618-1923
birth: 30 Apr 1844 
christening: 05 May 1844 Hørup,​ Sønderborg,​ Denmark
residence: 1844 Aaso,​ Denmark
parents: Hans Christian Christiansen,​ Elise Nilmann

 
name: Friedrich Christiansen
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 05 May 1844
baptism/christening place: Hørup, Sønderborg, Denmark
birth date: 30 Apr 1844
father's name: Hans Christian Christiansen
mother's name: Elise Nilmann
indexing project (batch) number: C22416-2
system origin: Denmark-ODM
source film number: 42777

father's name matches but the mother does not, unfortunately, maybe it's him

You find him in church book for Hørup parish, als sønder district....years 1821-1850 ops 55 and has a younger brother christian christensen ops 44
I was wondering if you might have a picture or a letter or something similar, written in a language you may not know, it might help us further.
Lis

[Inger Buchard]

There is another complication, now with the name of the father Hans: he might in German be called Johann, but in Danish Hans.
With this I sought for a Frederik (et al.) with a mother Christina in the census 1845 and found him there and then his birth in the churchbook at www.arkivalieronline.dk:

County Sønderborg, Parish Nordborg F 1840-1862 opslag 17 (this at www.arkivalieronline.dk):
Friederich Christensen, born 15th march 1843, bapt. 29. march
illegitimate son of Maria Kirstine Kieb... (Kiebitz) living in Nordborg and angiveligt: the alleged father a certain Johan Christensen from Slesvig (not said, whether it is the city Slesvig or the Duchy, so the mother would not have known)

Inger

[Jane C]

1845
Sønderborg, Als Nørre, Nordborg Flække, 1 Quartier, Haus No. 26, 25, FT-1845, C4326
Marie Kiebitz 28 ugift Tagelöhnerin born in Schwenstrup
Christina Christensen 5 ugift ihre Kinder born in Norburg
Friedrich Christensen 2 ugift ihre Kinder born in Norburg

What does the job title Tagelöhnerin mean? (something to do with fired bricks and clay? Or...?)

Schwenstrup parish is in Als Nørre, Sønderborg, Denmark.

Also there is a Schwenstrup (Kreis Sonderburg) in Schwenstrup parish.

***
Hey thanks for the answer Lissa!

[Lissa Pedersen]

Hi Jane,

Tagelöhnerin = day laborer

Lissa

[Jane C]

http://www.fyldepennen.dk/tekster/2933/fjerfuglene

I haven't found more, but is this a useful clue?

Historien om Wilhelm Kiebitz

Den af baron Niels Rosenkrantz nævnte Wilhelm Kiebitz var uddannet forstmand som hele sin slægt. Han var født og døde i Svenstrup på Als, men havde i mange år boet på Fyn. Hans bedstefar var forstbetjent Carl Kiebitz, Merseburg i Sachsen.
   
Hans far Johan Benjamin Kiebitz var også forstmand og indvandredede omkring år 1800 til Danmark, hvor vi ifølge bøgerne finder ham som bud for amtmanden i Nordborg på Als.
   
Midt i 1800-tallet var Wilhelm Kiebitz skovfoged på en af de mange fynske herregårde. Han var en god skovfoged, men godsejeren fik på et tidspunkt nys om, at Kiebitz vist var lidt for flink ved egnens krybskytter. Selv havde han til sit forsvar kun at sige, at de stakkels folk, der tyede til krybskytteriet, kun gjorde det af nød for at skaffe mad til de sultne munde i de småkårshjem, som dengang var så almindelige, og hvis armod slet ikke forstås af nutidsmennesker.

Much more on the website...

[Jane C]

Here's that ship's manifest showing Fridrich Christensen as a crewman aboard the Herschel departing Adelaide, South Australia, arriving Sydney, New South Wales, 18 FEB 1867.

Ancestry.com transcribes the place of origin of the VESSEL as "Schlesien." Fred's place of origin is written here too - very hard to read - not transcribed by Ancestry.

The earliest vessel I find a Fred Christensen on is in 1865:

Fred Christensen, 23, aboard the Rifleman, place of origin Denmark, port of departure London, port of arrival Sydney, New South Wales

The system won't upload the whole record so I cropped to just the name.



[vedhæfting slettet af admin]

[Lissa Pedersen]

Hi,

I read Schlesien.

Lissa

[Jane C]

I resized the 1865 manifest from the Rifleman and hope now it will upload. Let's see!

[vedhæfting slettet af admin]

[Lis Nielsen]

hi i read setterian or setterien but it makes no sence to me.....

[Homer Ficken]

Ancestry.com transcribes the place of origin of the VESSEL as "Schlesien."

Jane, on the Herschel transcription Ancestry erroneously used the entries from the passenger 'Of What Nation' column for the ship's 'Origin Location' and the manifest heading plainly lists that it sailed from Adelaide.

I believe Fred's listing does read Schlesien as Ancestry transcribed it.  But that does not narrow down his origin much, and they are listing nationality, not last residence or birthplace.

In addition to the Herschel voyage, Ancestry lists eleven other Sydney arrivals of seaman Fred/Fredk/Frederick Christensen born 1841-1844 between Oct 1865 and Nov 1870, but they all just list Denmark in the 'Of What Nation' column.

[Inger Buchard]

Did you ever read my answer
Torsdag 15 12 2011, 13:56 ?
Inger

[Homer Ficken]

Did you ever read my answer
Torsdag 15 12 2011, 13:56 ?
Inger

He could very well be the one you found Inger, but Jennifer needs some Australian record of her Fred's exact birthdate to confirm it.

[Inger Buchard]

You may find his birth date in Australia sources - if he didn't create a new identity like so many other immigrants. Don't expect to find a correct information about his birth place, because:

How would Australian sources be able to confirm the sources, I found in a bi-lingual area, where naming and spelling changed depending on, who reigned the area and what language people spoke and wrote? I sincerely doubt that an immigration officer in Australia would have any knowledge about what happend in Northern Germany abt. 1864 - and would he or the personel on bord a vessel from old Europe be able to read German writing and recognize, what a dialect speaking immigrant of Danish origin, but also used to speak low German (not German), said, and afterwards spell the informations correctly?

I have seen rather many ships' manifests from Ellis Island and know very well the variety of spellings of the names of immigrants from Slesvig-Holsten - except when they arrived on bord the ships with Danish crew members: the latter were able to write Danish names in a way recognizable to modern Danes

What I want to say:
in the passenger list the origin of Frederick Christensen is called something like Schlesien - no wonder: this industrially well developed area of Prussia was much more well known outside Germany than the small Duchy of Slesvig - I have found similar misspellings in the police records of Copenhagen 1890-1923, somewhat nearer to the German Empire, but nevertheless filled up with misunderstandings. Among these the misspelling Slesien in stead of Slesvig.

Inger

[Jane C]

I too believe Inger found the right man - I posted the ship's manifest where "Schlesien" came from, just so we could see for ourselves what Jennifer cited. I too believe "Schlesien" means as Inger says. It's not completely proven with what we've got, but it makes sense and is the most likely answer.

Inger's find of that birth record was amazing, and it seems our task in continuing most likely would leaad us to finding addtional evidence for Inger's discovery.

Didn't notice that about Adelaide as place of origin for the Herschel - so that's my mistake and thanks for your sharp eyes Homer! I did realize that they meant nationality when listing place of origin of the individual.

Yes, there are many many trips as a seaman by Fred Andersen, and seems to all be the same man. Do you want to see these Jennifer, or do you have them?

So Homer, you agree that "our" Fred Christensen first set foot in Australia in 1865, not 1867?

Jennifer, please add the children of Fred Christensen - their first and middle names. If he followed Danish naming practice, which many immigrants did in this era, those names will reflect the parents Inger found.

Again, not proof, but would help to build evidence.

[Lis Nielsen]

if we look at the frederik Inger found, he is confirmed March 8, 1857 Nordborg parish register for years 1855 to 1881 ops 7 that he stands to be the son of the late Marie, Frederick lives in Ibid but it does not know who he lives with..... marie dies January 18, 1847 Nordborg parish register 1820-1862 ops 210 and she's illegitimate daughter of Carl Friedr. Kiebitz and helena hollandsmann, Marie leaves behind two children and they are the ones jane have found in 1845 census.  not written anything about where the children are......if we look at his birth there is a hans christensen as godfather for him....
I also believe it is the right frederik, but we need the right something too confirm it......

til inger du er bedre end mig til det her er der måske et register på LA åbenrå med sdr jydske udvandrere da marie døde så ung at der jo ikke står noget omkring frederik (hans udvandring)  i hendes dødsinskription i den seperate førte dødekirkebog, dog kunne der jo stå noget omkring hvor børnene befinder sig på det tidspunkt. Jeg finder ham ikke i udvandrearkivet men der må på en eller anden måde være "noget" hvor vi kan spore ham fra dk til england og derfra videre til australien.

vh lis

[Inger Buchard]

Lis Nielsen asks:

Are there any sources in the archive in Aabenraa where emigrants were registered? Answer: no. Only if Frederick stayed long enough in Slesvig to get registered as a soldier by the prussian authorities after 1867 his disappearing could be noted in the so called 'alphabetical lists'. But he arrived in Australia 1867, so I would not count on this possibility.
The nearest harbour for emigration would be Hamburg going there by railway. The Hamburg Passenger Lists at ancestry.com don't begin until 1877. Earlier to that the great emigration harbour was Bremen but the passenger lists don't exist for this period.

Inger

[Peder Sørensen]

hej
according to
http://treeroots.homestead.com/INDUS.html

Herschel first voyage to Australia was 14 Sept., 1866 from Hamburg.

regards Peder

[Jane C]

So...are you guys saying you don't think it's "our" Frederik on the Rifleman, place of origin Denmark, port of departure London, arriving Sydney, New South Wales, Australia, 23 October 1865, per my post above?

?

[John Wrenholt]

In case anyone finds this useful:

Frederick's sister Kirstine Sophia Christensen (born Jul 6, 1840)

Birth Record:

AO: 1821-1869 Svenstrup, Als Nørre, Sønderborg ops 146

Confirmation Record:

AO: 1855-1881 Nordborg, Als Nørre, Sønderborg ops 81

[Homer Ficken]

So...are you guys saying you don't think it's "our" Frederik on the Rifleman, place of origin Denmark, port of departure London, arriving Sydney, New South Wales, Australia, 23 October 1865, per my post above?

I think it's the same Frederik on all of the dozen Sydney arrivals 1865-1870, but he was not the usual one-time immigrant, and could have used any one of the voyages to list on his naturalization papers.

If death of the mother who bore a son in Nordborg could be found, maybe it would list location of her son?

[Jane C]

Thanks Homer. Some were still referencing 1867 as immigration year, so I wondered. I agree, he could have used any of those arrivals as the time he decided to live in Australia, when filling out his naturalization papers.

Maybe Marie's father:

1845
Sønderborg, Als Nørre, Havnbjerg, Nordborg Amt, Hagenberg Kirchspiel, Dorf Lauensbÿ, , 24, FT-1845, C4328
Carl Friderich Kiebitz 52 gift Schustermeister, Fødested/birthplace: Hütten Amt
Anne Marie Wriborg 52 Gift seine Frau born in Torp
Anne Cathine Kiebitz  18 ugift  ihre Tochter  born in Lunden
Carl Frider. Christens  1 der Sohn des Tochter, Lauensbÿ
Christian Jacobsen  27    Schustergesellen
Niels And. Nielsen  22  Schustergesellen
Johan Hansen Wriborg  18  Lehrjunge


1845 - same census, Danish

hus nr 24 1 Carl Frederik Kiebitz G 1793 52 Hütten amt husfader skomagermester 
2 Anne Marie Wriborg G 00.01 1794 52 Torup husmoder hans kone 
3 Anne Cathrine Kiebitz U 06.09 1826 18 Lunden datter 
4 Carl Frederik Christensen U 22.10 1844 1 Lavensby søn søn af datteren
5 Christian Jacobsen U 1818 27 Tønder skomagersvend 
6 Niels Andersen Nielsen U 1823 22 Aabenraa skomagersvend 
7 Johan Hansen Wriborg U 08.07 1826 18 Lavensby skomagerlærling

aftægts- 1 Hans Christian Christensen Bonde G 00.03 1777 68 Lavensby husfader aftægtsmand
hus nr 24 b 2 Ellen Hansen G 00.07 1782 63 Lavensby husmoder hans kone
3 Karen Christensen U 09.03 1808 36 Lavensby datter deres datter
4 Hans Jensen U 13.12 1839 5 Lavensby søn hendes søn


Per Lis:
Marie dies January 18, 1847 Nordborg parish register 1820-1862 ops 210

[Jane C]

1803
Sønderborg, Als Nørre, Nordborg Flække, 1 ste=Quartier, 36 te. Familie, No. 29., FT-1803, C2551
Johann Benjamin Kibitz  40  Gift  Hausvater  Amtsbote und Beabschiede: Vice=Ober=Jäger??
Sophia Maria Friderika Jürgensen  31  Gift  Dessen Frau 
Maria Margarete Hansen  11  aussereliche Tochter Seiner 2 te Ehefrau
Carl Fridrich Kibitz  10  Dessen Sohn ersten Ehe
Margareta Elisabeth Kibitz  7  Tochter 2 te Ehe
Ernst Willhelm Kibitz  2  Sohn 2 te Ehe
Hans Kibitz  1  Sohn 3 te Ehe

[Inger Buchard]

Homer asks;
If death of the mother who bore a son in Nordborg could be found, maybe it would list location of her son?
Well, Lis already told where to find the death of the mother:
marie dies January 18, 1847 Nordborg parish register 1820-1862 (II) ops 210Fridrich Christensen is mentioned, but not his whereabouts, as 1847 he is probably still in Nordborg.

Why don't you compare the names of Frederik's children with those of his mother and illegitimate father? And maybe also of his sister Christine Sophie Christensen?

Inger

[Homer Ficken]

Per Lis:
Marie dies January 18, 1847 Nordborg parish register 1820-1862 ops 210

Sorry all, I missed that.

[Jane C]

I earlier posted this:

"Jennifer, please add the children of Fred Christensen - their first and middle names. If he followed Danish naming practice, which many immigrants did in this era, those names will reflect the parents Inger found."


I agree with Inger - but didn't find them myself.