help with reading/transation Helsingor 1902

[Karen Anne Kolling]

Mange tak for help with reading and translating this item.

It is in the church book for 1892-1909, Helsingor, Skt Olai, Lynge-Kronborg, Frederiksborg, confirmations, opslag 234, line 46.

I get:

Vanda Louise Larsen

Vaske?ibes ?aces Christian Larsen, hustru (housewife) Marie fodt (born) Nielsen

f. (born) paa (in) Foedselss?e ? 15 Febr. 1898, dobt(christened) ? St. Mar? (Martins?) ?

[Lissa Pedersen]

Hi Karen,

Vaskeribestyrer (laundry manager) Hans Chri-
stian Larsen og Hstr. (Hustru)
Marie f. (born) Nielsen

Vanda was born at Fødselsstiftelsen (must be in Copenhagen) 15 February 1887 and baptised same place 1 March.

You will find Vanda's birth at Fødselsstiftelsen in Copenhagen 1886-1891, opslag 29.

Lissa

Sorry for corrections!!

[Lissa Pedersen]

Hi Karen,

Vanda is here in Copenhagen in 1905 - she arrived from Snekkersten - and she was "at home" (with parents):

http://www.politietsregisterblade.dk/index.php?option=com_sfup&controller=politregisterblade&task=viewRegisterblad&id=2248261&limitstart=0

You will find the family in the 1906 census in Willemoesgade 26 - opslag 46. The census gives birth dates adn birth places - Hans Christian Sarup and Marie Tjæreby.

And here you will find Hans Christian and Marie: http://www.politietsregisterblade.dk/index.php?option=com_sfup&controller=politregisterblade&task=viewRegisterblad&id=1946116&limitstart=0

and here: http://www.politietsregisterblade.dk/index.php?option=com_sfup&controller=politregisterblade&task=viewRegisterblad&id=1599805&limitstart=0

And Marie in 1908: http://www.politietsregisterblade.dk/index.php?option=com_sfup&controller=politregisterblade&task=viewRegisterblad&id=2247035&limitstart=0

Lissa

[Karen Anne Kolling]

Tusind tak, Lissa.

What is the place - might it be a hospital?  Royal birth-something?

I get for the 1887 birth record:

born Feb 15
baptized 1 March
Vanda Louise Larsen
unskilled laborer Christian Larsen and housewife Marie Nielsen born Brath (or maybe Bradt, both show up in my family records)/ Bez?t og(and) ? 1890-9 May ? gift(married)? ? 26/6 23

[Lissa Pedersen]

Hi Karen,

The Royal Maternity Hospital (Den Kongelige Fødselsstiftelse)

Cannot read it all. But something like Brat/Brath?

They must have married in Copenhagen 9 May 1890. I don't know what it means re the document dated 26 June 1923?

Lissa

[Lissa Pedersen]

If Hans Christian is from Sarup in Hårby/Haarby parish, Baag district, Odense county, this could be him with his parents etc.:

odense, Baag, Haarby, Akkerup Skoledistrikt, Filstrup Mark, , Et Huus, 27, FT-1860
Name: Age: Marital status: Occupation in household: Occupation: Birth place:
Hans Larsen 42  Gift Arbeidsmand, Huusfader  Skjellerup Sogn Svendborg Amt
Kristine Jørgensen 32  Gift hans Kone  Jordløse Sogn Svendborg Amt
Grethe Larsen 13  Ugift deres Barn  Jordløse Sogn Svendborg Amt
Lars Larsen 10  Ugift deres Barn  Jordløse Sogn Svendborg Amt
Jørgen Larsen 5  Ugift deres Barn  Haarby Sogn Odense Amt
Hans Christian Larsen 1  Ugift deres Barn  Haarby Sogn Odense Amt

This Hans Christian's birth you will find in Haarby parish on opslag 38 (1849-1872).

Lissa

[Karen Anne Kolling]

Mange tak, Lissa.  I'm actually trying to find Vanda's connection to my family, so that would be through her mother, Marie.

My great grandmother was Ane Nielsen Brath Kolling, and among her sibs were Christian Nielsen and Jensine Brath who married Lars Thomsen.  There are letters between Christian and Jensine and Wanda (Vanda) who had moved to Italy.  One of Jensine's descendants was named after Wanda.

So maybe Marie Nielsen is a heretofore unknown sib of Ane, Jensine, etc. is the thought.

[Karen Anne Kolling]

In some places Marie's birth date is 18/2 59 and in some 18/2 59.  Ark thinks there are two places named Tjæreby.  So I looked in both for both dates.  Unfortunately crucial pages are washed out in one place.

So I am hoping I can find Marie's and Hans' marriage record and that would list Marie's parents.  I suspect (maybe I am completely wrong) that the part I can't read on their daughter Vanda's confirmation record is the marriage date and the location of the marriage.  Further down the page is an entry with a similar looking notation and a bit clearer writing.  It seems to be something like:

borgelig veid  (Whatever borgelig means...)

And I am suspecting, totally without any justification, that the part in Marie's entry with the 26/6 23 date may be that this marriage annotation was made on 26/6 23.  (When my family added kolling onto their name, someone went back and updated the birth registers.)

Does anyone want to make a guess about that unreadable part in Vanda's record in the first entry on that page?

Mange tak,

Karen

[Karen Anne Kolling]

The Royal Maternity Hospital (Den Kongelige Fødselsstiftelse)  -

Does this mean Wanda was adopted, and Marie and Hans Christian were not her biological parents?  I have an email correspondence going on between two folks in Danish that I'm being cced on about Wanda, and am reading through GramTrans, and they seem to think that's the case.  I had thought it was perhaps just a big hospital.

This is not really pertinent to my research, since I'm trying to trace Marie backwards, but I am curious.

Mange tak,

Karen

[Lissa Pedersen]

Karen,

There are several Tjæreby. Try www.krabsen.dk and use place names (stednavne).

Lissa

[Lissa Pedersen]

Hi Karen,

Did you find all the Tjæreby?

Place name  parish  district county

Tjæreby Idestrup Falsters Sønder Maribo
Tjæreby Terslev Ringsted Sorø
Tjæreby Tjæreby Strø Frederiksborg
Tjæreby Tjæreby Vester Flakkebjerg Sorø
Tjæreby Tårnborg Slagelse Sorø
Tjæreby Vor Frue Sømme Roskilde

You could try to find Marie's birth and confirmation. I admit that the Tjæreby in Frederiksborg is very difficult to read.

The contents of the brackets - I think: civil (borgerligt) marriage (ægteskab) 9 May 1890 in Copenhagen, i.e. that this will have to be looked-up at the Copenhagen City Archive. Could be that someone would do this?

Lissa

[Jane C]

Karen -

Your great grandmother was Ane Nielsen Brath Kolling - sibs Christian Nielsen and Jensine Brath who married Lars Thomsen.  Maybe Marie Nielsen is a heretofore unknown sib of Ane, etc.

I'm confused about a couple things.

1. What is the full birth name (first/middle/patronymic/place name) and later surname (added surname of Kolling) for your great-grandmother Ane's siblings Christian and Jensine?

2. I think you are saying you do not know the parents or place of origin for this Ane Nielsen Brath Kolling and her siblings. Yes?

3. If you do know - let's look there.

4. If you do not know - should we look for Ane's parents instead of Marie's?

[Karen Anne Kolling]

Hej, Lissa og Jane,

Tak for the tip, Lissa.  I just finished looking around February in 1859 and 1860 in all those places, and I could not find a birth record for Marie Nielsen.  However, as you noted, the Frederiksborg one was too faded to read in 1959, so I don't know about that.  The Maribo one was hard to read, but I do not think she was there.

Is the Copenhagen city archive http://www.politietsregisterblade.dk/ ?  I munged around in there but did not see how to look up marriages.

Jane, I know a lot but not everything about the folks you mention.  Also some records have come online since I last worked hard on this a few years ago.  

What has happened is that my third cousin Olav Rye Hintze, descendent of Jensine, has been looking for information about Vanda/Wanda and has the letters I mentioned.  In trying to find out more about Wanda, we ran across these hints that her mother Marie Nielsen/Brath married name Larsen might be related to our great grandmothers Jensine(Olav) and Ane(me).

So yes, we are thinking a hitherto unknown sib of Ane and Jensine, but if Marie's birth date is actually Feb 1859 or 1860, she would be a bit of a tight fit between Jensine and Ane considering the usual gap in that family.  So maybe, or maybe a cousin, or...  This is why I am trying to find Marie's parents.

This is what I know about the sibs.  Also I know something about some of their children, but some sibs just vanish.  The family last names were morphing around, as usual at that time.  I do know a lot about the ancestors of these sibs:

Ane Nielsen born July 23, 1849 in Gassum, married Frederik Andreas Gravengaard 2 April 1870, in Sem.  Had lots of kids, stayed in one place  - Mariager.

Christian Nielsen born September 8, 1851 in Gassum, confirmed 1866 in Sem.  Know little else about him.

Maren Nielsen Brath born February 18, 1854 in Gimming.  Know little else about her.

Jens Nielsen Brath born November 23, 1856 in Gjerlev died 1 April 1857 in Gjerlev.  Died as baby.

Jensine Caroline Jensen Brath born March 22, 1858 in Gjerlev confirmed 1872 in Enslev married Laurs Albek Thomsen unknown place.  Had kids, lived in Randers near Ane and their mother.

Ane Nielsen Brath born December 24, 1860 in Sem confirmed 1875 in Enslev married Martin Nielsen Kolding/Kolling on 20 November 1884 in Randers. died Nov. 1934 in Randers.  I think I know all the kids, lived near Jensine and their mother in Randers.

Nicoline Nielsen Brath born June 20, 1864 in Sem confirmed October 16, 1878 in Enslev.  Know little about her.  I received some info that she married Peter Zacho and had at least two kids, but I have not had time to trace it down to documents.

Jens Nielsen Brath born July 3, 1867 in Sem confirmed October 2, 1881 in Enslev.  Know little about him.

[Jane C]

Thanks for all that info Karen!

So... you do know the parents for Ane Nielsen Brath (married name Kolling) and her siblings?  8)

What were their names/who were they?

I searched the census on ddd.dda.dk for this family Nielsen/Brath/etc. and do not find them (not all years are online at this site).

I do find in 1850 in Gassum, Nørhald, Randers a one-year-old girl named Ane Nielsen, "Sidstnævntes Datter," living with Christen Jensen Vasehuus and Maren Jensdatter.

Basic point is this: you suspect that Marie Nielsen is a sibling to Ane Nielsen Brath (married name Kolling) - so it's important to tell us who are Ane's parents.

Mvh

[Karen Anne Kolling]

Ane Nielsen Brath Kolling/Kolding's parents and grandparents:

    Father: Niels Christian Jensen

        Born: November 7, 1815 in Hald.
        Died: May 5, 1887 in Randers.
            His parents:  Niels Christian Jensen's father was Jens Hansen Bradt, born in about 1790 in Udbyneder sogn, and his mother was Ane Hansdatter.

    Mother: Ane Katrine Christiansdatter

        Born:  October 22, 1829 in Gassum.
        Died or was buried: January 30, 1910, in Randers.
           Her parents: Ane Katrine Christiansdatter's parents were Christian Jensen Vasehuus, born about 1796 in Sønder Onsild sogn, and Maren Jensdatter, born about 1797 in Snæbum sogn.

Tak,

Karen

[Karen Anne Kolling]

The Sidstnævntes Datter is a full sib of my Ane and Jensine, etc. from before the parents married.

[Jane C]

Ah - I am seeing the picture now. Very helpful. Yes, these folks are all in the census in Randers amt. You've really put in the time Karen, and done your homework. The search for Marie Nielsen seemed to be flying all over Denmark - and these names/places put a framework around the search for any additional siblings to "your" Ane Nielsen Brath. Of course Marie Nielsen could be a more distant relative or family friend - I'm just saying this info will help to rule her in or out as a sibling.
Mvh

[Kirsten Tatt]

Two more 'Tjæreby' from http://krabsen.dk

Tjærbybæk Dronningborg Støvring Randers  Sogn beregnet - bør kontrolleres inden brug
Tjærby Gimming Støvring Randers  Bebyggelse. Ejerlav eller dele heraf.


vh Kirsten

[Karen Anne Kolling]

Mange tak, Kirsten.

I did not find her in Tjærby Gimming Støvring Randers.  There does not seem to exactly be a Tjærbybæk Dronningborg Støvring Randers in ark, so I check unsuccessfully for her in Stovring Herred in Randers hospital, Sankt Morten, and Stovring sogns.

hilsen,

Karen

[Lissa Pedersen]

Hi,

Found a Maren Nielsen Brat born 18 Feb 1854 in Gimming parish (Støvring, Randers) - 1814-1863 - opslag 107 - born to Niels Christian Jensen Brat and Ane Cathrine Christensdatter in Tjerbye (= Tjærby). Mother 24 years old.

Could that be the MARIE?

Note that her age at Vanda's birth was 32 years!!

Lissa

[Karen Anne Kolling]

Hej, Lissa,

Hmm.  I knew about Maren, she is in my list of sibs, and she appears in the 1860 census as Maren.

I wonder if she is Marie?  Maren disappears into the ether, so I don't know anything about her after that...

mvh,

Karen

[Lissa Pedersen]

Where did you find her in the 1860 census - AO or DDD? .. and in which parish?

Lissa

[Karen Anne Kolling]

I just noticed that although Maren's year of birth is way wrong, the day and month are almost right.  Very very suspicious :-)

[Lissa Pedersen]

When Vanda was born (15 Feb) the mother, Marie, was 32 years old (born 18 Feb) (see to the left of the parents names). That means 1887 - 32 = 1855 (or depending of the birthday 1854).

Lissa

[Karen Anne Kolling]

Lissa,

I found them in the actual census images in ark, and wrote it in my notes as below.  They are opslag 3 on the right hand page down the bottom.  (This must have been rescanned since I looked at it, it is much easier to read.)

            Randers, Sem, FT-1860   
Niels Christian Jensen 45 Gift
Ane Katrine Christiansdatter 31 Gift born in Gassum, Randers.
Ane Nielsen 11 Ugift born in Gassum, Randers.
Christian Nielsen 9?  Ugift born in Gassum, Randers.
Maren Nielsen Brath 6 Ugift born in Gimming, Randers.
Jensine Caroline Jensen Brath 2 Ugift born in Gjerlev, Randers.

I am thinking you are right - Maren is very possibly Marie.  You are so smart, Lissa :-)

[Lissa Pedersen]

Hi Karen,

I hope this Maren/Marie is the right person, but how can we prove it? If I get a chance one day I will go to the City Archives and try to find the civil marriage.

Lissa

[Lissa Pedersen]

In 1855 census the family is still in Gimming - opslag 13.

11 Oct 1856 labourer Niels Christian Jensen with wife and 3 children moved to Blenstrup (Gjerlev (= Gerlev) parish) - opslag 27 (Gimming parish 1828 - 1874).

In 1858 the family - plus a "new" daughter Jensine C.J. Brat - moved to Sem (parish) - opslag 211 (Gerlev parish 1847 - 1877).

I wonder where Maren/Marie is confirmed? Do you have the family in e.g. the 1870 census?

Lissa

[Karen Anne Kolling]

I have the family in Sem in the 1860 and 1880 censuses (In 1880 only the parents and Jens the youngest sib.)  I think the 1870 census for Sem was not online when I was working on this in the past.

I can see I am going to get sucked into this again :-)  So much for finishing my house projects or weeding the garden before winter ;-)

Too bad I cannot meet these people, although I received a treasure of photos from Olav.  I thought I would never know what my great grandmother looked like until I go those.

[Karen Anne Kolling]

I looked for Maren's confirmation record in the same Enslev book Jensine and Ane are in, but she is not there around 1868 anyway.  Perhaps she was already out working.  I do not see her leaving, but I will look some more.

[Karen Anne Kolling]

I have them in the 1870 census in Sem, opslag 14.  I'm ruminating on some of the columns:

Niels Chr. Jensen                                           54    Gift     ?    Hald            ?fader        isthisoccupation?
Ane Katrine Christens Datter                        40    Gift     ?    D?by?         ?moder
(must be Jensine) Caroline Jensen Nielsen    11    Ugift   ?    Blenstrup    barn
Ane Nielsen                                                     9    Ugift    ?    Sem            barn
Nicoline Nielsen                                             5    Ugift    ?    Sem            barn
Jens Nielsen                                                    2    Ugift    ?    Sem            barn

The four oldest children are gone, including Maren/Marie.  In other records, I have Ane the mother born in Gassum.