Forfatter Emne: Is Peter Ketelsen Lorentzen (Flensburg) the same person as Peter Bischoff?  (Læst 404 gange)

tundersche

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Dear experts,

I am related to the Bischoff family situated in Stenbjerg=Steinberg east of Flensburg.
Catharina von Lutten/von Lütten 1611 - 1647 is said to have been married to Peter Ketelsen Lorentzen *? +15.07.1650
and to Peter Bischoff (familysearch has two birth entries for Peter Bischoff *1590 and *1603, +1650)

Is Peter Ketelsen Lorentzen (Flensburg) the same person as Peter Bischoff - and if so why is he called "Bischoff"?
Many people have the same parents for Peter Bischoff and Peter Ketelsen Lorentzen:
Lorentz Petersen 1550 - 1625 and Anna Hansdatter Petersen (born Ketelsen) 1557 - 1623.

Any hints are very welcome!
Thanks in advance
Marten

Rebecca Johnson

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On first glance I would say that they are not the same person but you need to look deeper. 

Here is what we know from Family Search (FS):

Peter Bischoff #1 (MMV7-W1R) is born about 1590 in Gröden, Elbe-Elster, Brandenburg, Prussia and died there 21 Mar 1653.  He has an unnamed spouse (1595-1688) with whom he has 2 sons: Martin Bischoff born 18 Dec 1616 in Gröden, Elbe-Elster, Brandenburg, Prussia and Jacob Bischoff born in 1622 in the same place.  Peter Bischoff #1 can be excluded because the wife of Peter Ketelsen Lorentzen (2Z9C-Y2B), Catharina Von Lutten (L7B9-PW4), would only be 5 years old when Martin Bischoff is born in 1616.

Peter Bischoff #2 (GQDQ-8B9) was born about 1590 in Steinburg, Flensburg, Schleswig-Holstein, Prussia.  His spouse is Catharina (GQDQ-83D) born about 1607 in Steinburg, Flensburg, Schleswig-Holstein, Prussia.  This couple has the following children: Simon (about 1629), Hans (about 1632), Jeurgen (about 1636) and Catharina (about 1644) all born in Steinburg, Flensburg, Schleswig-Holstein, Prussia.  The birth dates for all 4 children are estimates.

Peter Ketelsen Lorentzen (2Z9C-Y2B) was born about 1595 in Flensburg, Schleswig-Holstein, Prussia.  He married Catharina Von Lutten (L7B9-PW4)—who was born 30 Dec 1611 in Flensburg, Schleswig-Holstein, Prussia and dies in 1647 probably from childbirth—on 6 Sep 1632.  This couple has Brigitta Lorentzen born about 1640 in Schleswig-Holstein, Prussia attached to them on FS.

I did not find a Peter Bischoff born in 1603 (KF51-8ZM) but it looks like someone merged him on 30 May 2020 with Peter Bischoff #2.

I think it is quite possible that Peter Bischoff #2 (GQDQ-8B9) and Peter Ketelsen Lorentzen (2Z9C-Y2B) are the same person.  Three of the children of Peter Bischoff #2 are named after the uncles/aunt of Peter Ketelsen Lorentzen (ie: Hans, Jeurgen, Catharina).

Then again, they might not be the same person either.  There is just not enough information and just because someone has put the parents in, that match the parents of Peter #2 and Peter Ketelsen, well, without source documentation I would tread carefully.  Having said that, it is also possible that at some point someone merged Peter #1 with Peter #2 and overwrote his surname to be Bischoff and then they were unmerged at a later date.  Finally, Catharina Von Lutten might have married two spouses both having the given name of Peter.

The challenge with that is it assumes that Peter #2 died and Peter Ketelsen is the 2nd husband.  And, the problem with that is that Peter #2 is still having children after Peter Ketelsen marries Catharina Von Lutten in 1632.

I hope I have not confused you too much.  I had to write it all out to make sense of it myself.

Christopher Emil Hagedorn

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I know this is an old thread, but I wanted to share a piece of information that is not otherwise easy to find.

The mayor of Flensburg Peter Bischoff wrote the following about his heritage: "Anno 1655 d. 5. Februarij: Bin ich Peter Bischoff von Erlichen Eltern gebohrn in Steinberg. Mein Vatter ist gewessen Simon Bischoff, die Mutter Christina Bischoffs. Mein Grossvatter väterlicherseits ist gewesen Peter Bischoff, die Grossmutter Catrina Bischoffs, wohnhaftig in Steinberg. Mein Grossvatter auf der Mütterlich Lienie ist gewesen Hans Brun, die Gross Mutter Metta Bruness bey Steinberg Haff. Meine Taufsgevattern sind gewesen He. Lorenz Anderssen (so mir zur Tauffe gehalten), Lorentz Brun vnd Christina Bischoffs vnd Mein Tauffvatter gewesen Mauritius Müller, Pastor der christlichen Gemeine zu Steinberg Kirchspiel." (Chronik Kirchspiel Steinberg vol. I, p. 555)

It would seem that this Peter Bischoff's paternal grandparents, Peter Bischoff and Catrine Bischoffs, would match up with your Peter Bischoff and Cathrina von Lütten; but the mayor Peter Bischoff's father Simon Bischoff died in 1688 at the age of 72; born in 1616, his mother was probably born before 1600, which doesn't match up very well with your quoted birth date of Catharina von Lutten, nor the marriage date of 6. september 1632 which must come from one of the early church records in Flensburg.

The church records of Steinberg itself doesn't go any further back than the 1660s, but there are tax and land records which can help shed some light on earlier relationships.

Hans Rosendal

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Are you aware that they are both mentioned by Bonde and Hvidtfeldt: https://slaegtsbibliotek.dk/909869.pdf on page 24 #32 and #33
and Peter Lorentzen by Gether: https://slaegtsbibliotek.dk/900400.pdf on page 424 due to a printing error this text is reproduced here:

A son, merchant and deputy citizen in Flensburg, Joachim Holst, who died in 1648 and who was married to Anna Lorentzen, whose parents were merchant and deputy citizen in Flensburg, from 23 April 1600 alderman, Lorentz Petersen Reinhusen 1376 and Anna Ketelsen. …
… A brother of Anna Lorentzen was Peter Lorentzen or Ketelsen, who on 6 September 1612 married Catharina von Lutten, who was the daughter of a councilor in Flensburg in 1624, Hilmar von Lutten and Brigitta Hoyer; their daughter, Brigitta Lorentzen [corrected from Brigitta von Lutten according to the list of additions and corrections in Gether volume 2 page 123], married in Flensburg 21 October 1661, mayor there 1701, Berend (Bernhard) Stricker (A. 247), whose daughter, Anna Stricker, was married to the principal of the Latin school in Flensburg from 1701 until his death 20 October 1725, Johannes Moller (D. 65), with whom she had 5 children, among them the genealogist Olaus Henricus Moller, who in 1744 became a professor at the University of Copenhagen and in 1749 rector of the same Latin school, (see Plate D. and Plate X.).


The sources for the information in Bonde and Hvidtfeldt are: O. H. Moller: St. Johs. I; O. H. Moller: von Lutten; O. H. Moller: Wittemack; Rivesell, p. 489. They therefore originate from the above genealogist O. H. Moller, who is considered trustworthy. Peter Lorentzen and Catharina von Lutten were thus the great-grandparents of O. H. Moller!

Regards Hans Rosendal