Forfatter Emne: Jorgen Christensen's skifteprotokoller in Kalundborg  (Læst 215 gange)

Kerry Larson

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I could use some help understanding Jorgen Christensen's skifteprotokoller in Kalundborg.  Fortunately, it's one that Aurelia Clemons has abstracted at https://aurelia-clemons.dk/kalundbx.htm
Citér
Jorgen Christensen ungkarl i Rasmus Nielsen Bostrups huus       19 Feb/16 Mar 1724     pg 487
  (fodt i Bodagurer?, Hade herred, Schanderberg, Jylland)
MODER:   Kirsten Rasmusdtr = STEPFADER: 2. Niels Michelsen
BRO:     Niels Christensen
         Rasmus Christensen       = ... i Thunoe
         Rasmus Christensen       tiene i Jylland
½ BRO:   Mikkel Nielsen   tiene i Tranboe, Norge
SODSK.CH: Rasmus Nielsen Bostrup = Dorthe Jorgensdtr
[Kalundborg Byfoged; Book 4 1717-1724; film 59351]

I need to clarify his relationship to Mikkel Nielsen.  Jorgen Christensen's mother, Kirsten Rasmusdtr, likely married 2nd to Niels Michelsen, so identifying him as stepfather appears correct.  However, Mikkel Nielsen is the son of Niels Michelsen and his second wife, Dorthe Jorgensdtr.  So Mikkel Nielsen would be a step-brother to Jorgen Christensen not 1/2 brotherI could use the help of someone who can read these records to review the relationships of Niels Michelsen and Mikkel Nielsen to others.

19 Feb, lower half
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHK-93PV-HXK4?i=607&cat=480445
http://ao.salldata.dk/vis1.php?side=328&bsid=133213&kb=Retsbetjente+amt%2C+Holb%C3%A6k%2C+Kalundborg%2C+Skifteprotokol%2C+1717-1724

16 Mar, top right
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-13PV-HFPP?cat=480445
http://ao.salldata.dk/vis1.php?bsid=133213&side=330

I could not locate at https://www.sa.dk/  The images linked above show different qualities.

Additional info:  After Niels Michelsen died, Dorthe Jorgensdtr married Rasmus Nielsen.  That's the Rasmus Nielsen in these records.  I put together a relationship diagram that is attached if you are really interested.  Thanks very much for any help.

Niels Just Rasmussen

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Sv: Jorgen Christensen's skifteprotokoller in Kalundborg
« Svar #1 Dato: 30 Apr 2022 - 11:29 »

The text clearly states "hans halvbroder Michel Nielsen, som tiener i [?......?] i Norge".
NB. Unclear if it says Tranboe (eller Croneboe?)

So I see two possibilities:
A) So half-brother in the sense that Jørgen Christensens stepfather (Niels Michelsen) is also the father to Mikkel Nielsen, as you figured out.
B) Unless we have a case where Kirsten Rasmusdatter got a child (Mikkel Nielsen with a Niels X-sen) BEFORE she was married to Christen X-sen. [Maybe that guy even was Norwegian, so it could explain why he is in Norway?]

Wonder if it says Tranboe - is it the modern Tranby, Lier, Buskerud fylke, Østlandet.

Kerry Larson

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Sv: Jorgen Christensen's skifteprotokoller in Kalundborg
« Svar #2 Dato: 30 Apr 2022 - 19:49 »
Thanks for your help again Niels.  Niels Michelsen was married to Dorthe Jorgensdatter when he died, so it doesn't seem possible that she was married to Christen X-sen after him.  Does the phrase "who serves in Norway" imply military service?  Would a married man have been sent on military service at that time?  He was in the middle of having his children, so it doesn't seem like he'd have gone off to work there either.

I'm in the middle of trying to figure out another can of worms.  In a previous thread, Ole Westermann translated a record indicating that Mikkel Nielsen was the son of Niels Andersen:
Citér
Løverd. d. 25 Sept. Natmandens Niels An-
derßøns Søn Mikkel Nielßøn
Tienende
Skarpretteren i Kiøbenhafn Frans
Mölhaussen hans Karls Daater Døbt
ved 11 Slett og kaldet - - - Dorothe
Baaren af Natmandens Kone - Fadd:
Niels Anderßøn Natmand, Maths An-
derßøn, Hans Nielßøn, Maria Lisbeth
Nielsdatt.
   ----------- transl:
Saturday the 25 Sept. The nightman's Niels An-
derßøn's son Mikkel Nielßøn serving
the executioner in København Frans
Mölhaussen his assistent's daughter baptized
at 11 o'clock and named - - - Dorothe
Carried bythe nightman's wife - Witn:
Niels Anderßøn nightman, Maths An-
derßøn, Hans Nielßøn, Maria Lisbeth
Nielsdatt.

I assumed that was correct until I started reviewing all of these Skifteprotokoller records that showed Mikkel Nielsen was the son of Niels Michelsen.  In this abstract, Mikkel Nielsen was the son of Dorthe Jorgensdatter and her husband was only called Niels...:
Citér
Dorthe Jorgensdtr ( Dorthe Jorgensdtr )        28 Nov 1725    pg #12
2HUSB:   Rasmus Nielsen Bostrup
1HUSB:   Niels ...
CH:      Mikkel Nielsen   (? Mikkel Nielsen Moller - signed)
         Karen Nielsdtr = Christian Sorensen Smed

But several of her brothers' estate records note that he is Niels Michelsen:
Citér
Jorgen Jorgensen ungkarl (barnfoed i Calundborg)              7 Mar 1702       pg 225
BRO:     Elias Jorgensen tiene i Love herred
SIS:     Kirsten Jorgensdtr (dod) = Abraham Funch? i St.Jorgensbierg
            CH:  Jorgen Abrahamsen
                 Else Lisbeth Abrahamsdr
         Dorthe Jorgensdtr = Niels Michelsen tommermand
         Karen Jorgensdtr  tiene Peder Bentsen i Calundborg
         Ane Margrethe Jorgensdtr  tiene formt Niels Michelsen
½ BRO:   Jorgen Jorgensen
         Johan Jorgensen
         Jens Jorgensen  alle hiemme hos ders moder Maren Jorgensdtr i Eggislofmahle
[Kalundborg Byfoged; Book 2 1695-1708; film 49350]

Elias Jorgensen ungkarl (barnfoed i Calundborg)               7 Mar 1702       pg 226
BRO:     Christen Jorgensen       tiene i Love herred
SIS:     Dorthe Jorgensdtr = Niels Michelsen tommermand i Calundborg
         Karen Jorgensdtr  tiene Peder Bentsen i Calundborg
         Ane Margrethe Jorgensdtr  tiene Niels Michelsen
         Kirsten Jorgensdtr (dod) = Abraham Funch i St.Jorgensbierg, Calundborg
            CH:  Jorgen Abrahamsen
                 Else Lisbeth Abrahamsdr  (surnames assumed)
½ BRO:   Jorgen Jorgensen
         Johan Jorgensen
         Jens Jorgensen   all hos deris STIFMODER Maren Jorgensdtr i Eggeslofmagle
[Kalundborg Byfoged; Book 2 1695-1708; film 49350]

Jens Jorgensen Skraeder      29 Nov/20 Dec 1724      pg #7
WIFE:    Ane Pedersdtr
BRO:     Jorgen Jorgensen boende i Gierslov
½ BRO:   Christen Jorgensen       skoemager i Callundborg
½ SIS:   Dorthe Jorgensdtr        = Rasmus Nielsen
         Karen Jorgensdtr = Hans Qvist  (? ½ BRO: Hans Qvist listed in 1 place)
         Ane Margrethe Jorgensdtr = Niels Nielsen Moller
         Kirsten Jorgensdtr (dod) = Abraham Funk
            CH:  Jorgen Abrahamsen Funkes tiene Hans Qvist
                 Else Lisbeth Abrahamsdr = Christopher Christiansen
STIFCH:  Niels Michelsen  laere hos deceased
wgd: Christian Castensen
[Kalundborg Byfoged; Book 5 1720-28; film 49352]
These entries are all organized in the attachment to my first message in this thread.

Those records along with the Jorgen Christensen one led me to conclude that the pastor had made a mistake when listing Niels Andersen as the father of Mikkel.  HOWEVER, I just came across another baptism record where Mikkel Nielsen is identified as the son of Niels Andersen:  https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/en/billedviser?epid=22716178#474595,84626531 (p. 140, 2nd on left) So now I'm exceptionally confused.  It doesn't seem like there were two contemporaneous Mikkel Nielsens in Kalundborg, were there?  Møller was frequently used with his name.

Here are Mikkel Nielsen's children's' baptism records:
1. Anna Mette, 29 Mar 1723, https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/en/billedviser?epid=22716178#474595,84626519 (top right)
2. Dorothe #1, 9 Feb 1725, https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-894W-8325 (mid left)
3. Maria, 7 Nov 1727, https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L94W-83LP?i=81 (mid left)
4. Dorothe #2, 25 Sep 1728, https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-994W-83KH?i=84 (mid left)
5. Johanne (record not found)

Since the line I'm working is Dorothe #2, I think I have to revert back to Niels Andersen being Mikkel's father.  I would be grateful for any insights that clarify the parents of Mikkel Nielsen.
« Senest redigeret: 30 Apr 2022 - 19:51 af Kerry Larson »

Niels Just Rasmussen

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Sv: Jorgen Christensen's skifteprotokoller in Kalundborg
« Svar #3 Dato: 30 Apr 2022 - 20:48 »
Hi Kerry.

It was Kirsten Rasmusdatter, who had be married to a Christen to get children called Christensen.....

"tiener i Norge" = means being a servant in Norway [so it is not military, but likely farm labouring or possibly in a craftsman's shop or the like].

Ole Westermann transcription gives us a Mikkel Nielsen, son of a "natmand" [shit-barrel remover - done at night]

Being a "natmand" was "uærligt" [dishonest] work and "normal folks" couldn't have contact with "uærlige" people without becoming dishonest themselves. [think about untouchables castes in India]
"Skarpretter" is an executioner - who was also regarded as "uærligt" arbejde (though executioners could actually become pretty wealthy because of their monopoly, compared with the "natmænd").

So there is really no chance that a farming family would have any contact.

Then we have a Mikkel Nielsen who signs his name "Møller". Being a miller is rural farmer-upper class as building/buying a mill was expensive.

So we clearly have at least two different Mikkel Nielsen.

Child : 1 + 4 = father Mikkel Nielsen.
Child : 2 + 3 = father Mikkel Nielsen Møller.

Cheers
Niels
« Senest redigeret: 30 Apr 2022 - 21:19 af Niels Just Rasmussen »

Kerry Larson

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Sv: Jorgen Christensen's skifteprotokoller in Kalundborg
« Svar #4 Dato: 30 Apr 2022 - 21:26 »
Thank you Niels!  Your conclusion is the only thing that makes sense.  I normally try to avoid being tricked by two people with the same name, but this time I fell for it.  Kalundborg is complicated by not having church records before 1706.

Could these records be for natmand Niels Andersen?
Citér
Peder Christensen vaegter    19 Aug/21 Nov 1720      pg  #1
WIFE:    Dorthe Pedersdtr
Niels Andersen ladefoged
     CH:         Soren Nielsen Raklow
wgd: Christen Andersen
[Kalundborg Byfoged; Book 5 1720-28; film 49352]

Maren Jensdtr kielderpige hos Niels Andersen ladefoged          31 Mar/9 May 1722      pg  #2
SIS:     Karen Jensdtr
[Kalundborg Byfoged; Book 5 1720-28; film 49352]
Would the ladefoged/charging officer be a role played by the executioner's helper?

Also appears later:
Citér
Kirsten Jensdtr            30 Nov 1743               pg 327
HUSB:    Niels Andersen ladefoget
CH:      Ane Pedersdtr enke = afg. Jens Barfred
HUSB.SIS.CH: Else Marie ... i Christiania, Norge
[Kalundborg Byfoged; Book 7 1731-1754; film 49354]

Niels Just Rasmussen

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Sv: Jorgen Christensen's skifteprotokoller in Kalundborg
« Svar #5 Dato: 30 Apr 2022 - 21:30 »
This probate is worth looking into!

Mikkel Nielsen, Odsing borger indvaaner         7 May 1691     pg 313
WIFE:    (død)
CH:      Niels Michelsen  vngefehr 22 laert handverk hos en sneker i Aars
         Alhed Michelsdtr 24 tiene i København
Guardian: Niels Christensen Møller.
[Kalundborg Byfoged; Book 1 1682-1695; film 49349]
Kilde: https://aurelia-clemons.dk/kalundbx.htm

A Niels Christensen Møller as Guardian!
That could mean that the dead wife of recently deceased Mikkel Nielsen [who had citizenship in Odsing] was either a daughter or sister (or other family member) of Niels Christensen Møller.

The child "Niels Michelsen" has learned to be a "snedker" (carpenter) in Aars and we later know that Niels Michelsen was a "tømmermand" (timber-man) in Kalundborg.

No a Ladefoged is a high position at a larger farm - not given to "uærlige".
See https://denstoredanske.lex.dk/ladefoged

So Niels Andersen, natmand and Niels Andersen, ladefoged are two different people!


There is an Erik Christensen Møller; citizen of Kalundborg - very likely a brother of Niels Christensen Møller in the above probate!

Erik Christensen Moller, borger indvaaner      7 May/22 Jul 1691       pg 333
WIFE:    Boel Pedersdtr  ( Bodil Pedersdtr )
CH:      Ingeborg Eriksdtr        24
SIS.CH:  Christian Pedersen bager i Calundborg
wgd: Valentin Corneli glarmester
[Kalundborg Byfoged; Book 1 1682-1695; film 49349]

Here is Niels Michelsen, tømmermand as the wife's (Sidsel Pedersdatter's) guardian!

Niels Nielsen Moller indvaaner        4 Jul 1709              pg 46
WIFE:    Sidsel Pedersdtr
2 CH:    Christen Nielsen 26 ungkarl
         Karen Nielsdtr   28 tiene Ove Poulin
wgd: Niels Michelsen tommermand
[Kallundborg Byfoged; Book 3 1708-1717; film 49351]

NB: Is Niels Niels Møller possibly a son of Niels Christensen Møller, who we saw in the first probate from 1691?!
« Senest redigeret: 30 Apr 2022 - 21:45 af Niels Just Rasmussen »

Kerry Larson

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Sv: Jorgen Christensen's skifteprotokoller in Kalundborg
« Svar #6 Dato: 30 Apr 2022 - 21:57 »
Child : 1 + 4 = father Mikkel Nielsen.
Child : 2 + 3 = father Mikkel Nielsen Møller.
Even though Møller isn't used in the first child's baptism record, Anne/Ane Mette, she appears to belong to him based on his Skifteprotokoller:
Citér
Mikkel Nielsen moller indvaaner       29 Aug/21 Oct 1729      pg #60
WIFE:    Inger Margrethe Rasmusdtr
CH:      Ane Mette Michelsdtr     7
         Dorthe Michelsdtr                 5
         Marie Michelsdtr         2
MORBRODER: Christen Jorgensen skoemager
wgd: Mathias Andersen
[Kalundborg Byfoged; Book 6 1729-1731; film 49353]
Rasmus Nielsen, Mikkel Nielsen Møller's stepfather, is also a witness to the baptism, so it adds evidence that he is the father.

Niels Just Rasmussen

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Sv: Jorgen Christensen's skifteprotokoller in Kalundborg
« Svar #7 Dato: 30 Apr 2022 - 22:01 »
Correct it seems that "Ane Mette" is "legit"!