Forfatter Emne: Ane Larsdatter  (Læst 371 gange)

Art Berggreen

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Ane Larsdatter
« Dato: 28 Apr 2022 - 18:11 »
My 4th-great-grandmother Ane Larsdatter was married to Joseph Olsen in Karlstrup parish, Roskilde Amt 12 May 1793.  She lived the rest of her life and died in that parish.  Her death record and census records indicate she was born about 1768.  Because of her marriage and life, I think there has been an assumption that she was born in that parish and that this has been copied to lots of family trees with no source citations.  But I can not find baptism or confirmation records in Karlstrup parish that fit.  I did find a couple of trees that give her birth in nearby Højelse parish.
(1768 3rd baptism 21p Trinity)
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17116246#152009,25288650
But I haven't found and records really tying these people together.  Any ideas or thoughts.

Thanks for any help,
Art

Niels Just Rasmussen

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« Svar #1 Dato: 30 Apr 2022 - 11:39 »
Folketælling 1787: Roskilde, Tune, Karlstrup, Annexet Carlstrup, en Gaard, , FT-1787, C4584
Christopher Ipsen     40     Gift     Mand.     Bonde og gaardbeboer      
Else Nielsdatter     60     Gift     Hans kone           
Joseph Olsen     22     Ugift     Søn af 1 ægteskab 
&
Hans Hansen     32     Gift     Mand.     Bonde og gaardbeboer      
Kirsten Larsdatter     40     Gift     Hans kone           
Morten Larsen     18     Ugift     konens barn af 1 ægteskab           
Mette Larsdatter     14     Ugift     konens barn af 1 ægteskab           
Johanne Larsdatter     10     Ugift     konens barn af 1 ægteskab           
Ingeborg Larsdatter     7     Ugift     konens barn af 1 ægteskab           
Lars Hansen     4     Ugift     Mandens søn af 1 ægteskab           
Mads Madsen     22     Ugift     Tjenestefolk     Soldat 
Anne Larsdatter     20     Ugift     Tjenestefolk  [So here born ca. 1767; if it is her Joseph later marries.]
Kilde: Dansk Demografisk Database.

As with servants working on especially larger farms, she could come from all the surrounding parishes.
Not finding a confirmation record really indicates that she has moved into the Karlstrup parish to work.

Lars Jørgensen, gaardmand i Lille Salbye [In Højelse Sogn] is the father of this Ane [Larsdatter] you linked to above.
So as he seems to have died before Census of 1787 a Probate sadly can't give a definitive answer [if he had died after 1793 the probates often give information on the daughters husbands].
If a theoretical probate from pre-1787 still states that Anne Larsdatter "tiener i Carlstrup" it would still be strong circumstantial evidence.

This should be Lars Jørgensen in Højelse Sogn in Oeders Efterretninger 1771:

Mandens navn:   Lars Jørgensen   Mandens erhverv:   Bonde
Mandens alder:   64   Mandens civilstand:   Gift
Mandens nr. ægteskab:   2   Mand død (ja/nej):   Nej
Hustru død (ja(nej):   Nej   Hustrus alder:   32
Hustrus civilstand:   Gift   Hustrus nr. ægteskab:   1
Sogn:   Højelse   Herred:   Ramsø
Amt:   Roskilde   Stednavn:   3
Indtastningsnr:   C0622   Løbenr.:   62
« Senest redigeret: 30 Apr 2022 - 11:53 af Niels Just Rasmussen »

Art Berggreen

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« Svar #2 Dato: 30 Apr 2022 - 14:23 »
Thanks Niels,

This all fits, but still pretty circumstantial.
The Joseph Olsen in the 1787 census fits.  I believe this is his birth/baptism record (1765 #5):
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?bsid=152483#152483,25385671
His father was Ole/Oluf Larsen who died about 1773.

Art

Niels Just Rasmussen

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« Svar #3 Dato: 30 Apr 2022 - 16:36 »
Oeders Efterretninger:
Mandens navn:   Ole Larsen   Mandens erhverv:   Fæste Bonde
Mandens alder:   70   Mandens civilstand:   Gift
Mandens nr. ægteskab:   3   Mand død (ja/nej):   Nej
Hustru død (ja(nej):   Nej   Hustrus alder:   43
Hustrus civilstand:   Gift   Hustrus nr. ægteskab:   1
Sogn:   Karlstrup   Herred:   Tune
Amt:   Roskilde   Stednavn:   6
Indtastningsnr:   C4447   Løbenr.:   14

Gammel Køgegård Gods, Skifteprotokol.
SKIFTE efter Olle Larsen i Kagstrup ANNO 1773 den 7. April. [Karlsstrup was also called Kagstrup]
Enken [3rd wife]: Else Nielsdatter.
Børn [unclear, but likely of the 1st wife]
Søn: Jens.
Søn: Lars.
Søn: Olle.
Datter: Karen.
1ste Hustru: Karen Ollesdatter.
Børn [unclear, but must be from the 2nd Wife]
Søn: Abraham.
Datter: Kiersten.
Datter: Karen.
2den Hustru: Anna Abrahamsdatter.
Børn [unclear, but must be from the 3rd wife]:
Søn: Joseph.
Datter: Anna.
Kilde (s. 169, øverst højre): http://ao.salldata.dk/vis1.php?bsid=133851&side=169

So it fits the information from Oeders Efterretninger 1771, that Ole Larsen is in his 3rd marriage!
« Senest redigeret: 30 Apr 2022 - 16:39 af Niels Just Rasmussen »

Art Berggreen

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« Svar #4 Dato: 01 Maj 2022 - 00:30 »
So it fits the information from Oeders Efterretninger 1771, that Ole Larsen is in his 3rd marriage!

Niels, thanks for the extra information.  I already had his 3 marriages, but only Joseph (my 4th-great-grandfather) with Else Nielsdatter .  I'll see what I can find out about the other children.

Art

Art Berggreen

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« Svar #5 Dato: 01 Maj 2022 - 17:29 »
I've been looking through the Karlstrup parish records looking for the children of Oluf Larsøn/Ole Larsen.  It appears that different priests had slightly different name spelling habits.  When the handwriting changes the spellings change slightly.  The early records consistently used Oluf Larsøn (I assume an o with dots above is an early form of ø) and the children as Olufsøn or Olufsdatter.  Later priests switched to Ole Larsen and Olsen and Olsdatter for children.  The later records usually contain the mother's name.  Also, I assume a little "cross" symbol below the baptismal name indicates that the child died very young?

Everything fits a pattern of only one Oluf Larsøn/Ole Larsen in Karlstrup parish during this time span, except one page in 1735 (17 Mar and Misericord?).
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17116506#152482,25385572
Could someone transcribe/translate these two entries to see if they could be the same or two different people?

Thanks,
Art
« Senest redigeret: 01 Maj 2022 - 17:33 af Art Berggreen »

Niels Just Rasmussen

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« Svar #6 Dato: 03 Maj 2022 - 15:58 »
The change from -søn to -sen in written names happens during this period.
It reflects a change that probably already for fully realised, where the -ø- sound (in older Danish written ö) had become a schwa sound /Ə/ written as -e-. [same as the second syllable in english Butter]
It says
"Den 17. Martii blev Oluf Larsöns den Yngres datter Ingeborg døbt /fød den 13 ditto/ ved Fasteprædiken. [Ingeborg Olufsdatter]
Lars Madsens kone Kirstine bar Barnet.
"

Ole/Oluf Larsøn/Larsen would be the same person with variances in spelling (like you also often find with place names, where the same priest also could spell a locality in different ways).
The variance in spelling in the 1700's is often so pronounced is that it seems to me that you probably were considered "learned" if you could spell a word in many different ways.
A focus on having a singular correct spelling seems to be a result of later times (most likely the school law of 1814).

It seems though we have a Ole/Oluf Larsen/Larsøn the younger and so we also must have an older of the same name.

Ole is the short form of Oluf (like Bob is a short form of Robert).

Art Berggreen

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« Svar #7 Dato: 03 Maj 2022 - 17:32 »
Thank you Niels!

Since my Oluf Larsøn was about 38 years old in 1735 and there is a Jens but no Ingeborg listed in his Skifteprotokol, I am assuming that he is the elder.  Most of the children in the parish records that were still living in 1773 match with those listed in his Skifteprotokol.  I'll have to look for deaths of the few of children that were not listed.  It looks like he had 16 children with his three wives, with several of them dying young.

I've frequently seen a word that looks like "Misericord" where i expect to find the church date, but I haven't found its meaning in any online seaching (except the name of a church seating item).

Thanks again,
Art

Art Berggreen

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« Svar #8 Dato: 03 Maj 2022 - 18:39 »
I've frequently seen a word that looks like "Misericord" where i expect to find the church date, but I haven't found its meaning in any online seaching (except the name of a church seating item).

It looks like I've finally found that date.  It looks to be the 2nd Sunday after Easter.

Art

Niels Just Rasmussen

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« Svar #9 Dato: 03 Maj 2022 - 18:51 »
Yes "Misericordia Domini" is the second sunday after easter sunday (Resurrectio Domini or Festum Paschatos).

Art Berggreen

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« Svar #10 Dato: 03 Maj 2022 - 19:00 »
In 1764, what day is "Festo Annuntiationis Christi".  It looks to be a feast day for the Virgin Mary that may get moved to avoid conflict with other Easter related dates.

Art

Niels Just Rasmussen

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« Svar #11 Dato: 03 Maj 2022 - 21:20 »
In 1764, what day is "Festo Annuntiationis Christi".  It looks to be a feast day for the Virgin Mary that may get moved to avoid conflict with other Easter related dates.

Art


English: Feast of the Annunciation.
Danish: Mariæ bebudelsesdag.

So this is a bit complicated. It was held the 25. of March in Denmark UNLESS, from 1683, that it should be held at Palm-Saturday (day before Palm-Sunday) if Palm-Saturday lay the 25. March or earlier!

until 1770 whereafter it was moved in Denmark & Norway to the fifth sunday in the Fast ("Dominica Passione" or Judica", which date varied for each year), the sunday before Palm Sunday.
Source: https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mari%C3%A6_bebudelsesdag

In 1764 the Palm-Saturday was the 14. April, so the "Mariæ Bebudelsesdag" would have been the 25. March!

Art Berggreen

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« Svar #12 Dato: 04 Maj 2022 - 15:10 »
Niels, thank you for this bit of church date decoding!

Art