Forfatter Emne: Mikkel Nielsen from Kalundborg  (Læst 356 gange)

Kerry Larson

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Mikkel Nielsen from Kalundborg
« Dato: 25 Apr 2022 - 23:38 »
I'm requesting a transcription of this marriage record for Mikkel Nielsen.  According to his probate, his wife's name was Inger Margrethe Rasmusdatter.  11 July, mid right of p. 757:  https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/en/billedviser?epid=22716178#474595,84626808Is this a betrothal or marriage record, or both?  According to the index, they are mixed together.  Thank you.

Edit:  I see it now, both betrothal on 11 Jul and marriage on 7 Nov 1721.
« Senest redigeret: 25 Apr 2022 - 23:44 af Kerry Larson »

Bjarke Thyrrestrup

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« Svar #1 Dato: 26 Apr 2022 - 13:58 »

Fredag den 11 July Skeede Trolovelse imellem Ung Ka[rl]
Mikkel Nielsøn og Sl. Jens Daugaards Enche In..
Rasmusdaatter; Cautionister for Deris ægteschabs Lov-
lighed vare effterschrevne  -          Copul. den 7 Nov. 1721


Mvh
Bjarke

Kerry Larson

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« Svar #2 Dato: 26 Apr 2022 - 16:55 »
That's odd; Google translated this as a divorce but Yandex Translate has it correct as a betrothal.  So she was the widows of Jens Daugaards?  What does "SI." mean before his name?  What does "effterschrevne" mean (it doesn't translate)?  Thanks very much for your help Bjarke.

Bjarke Thyrrestrup

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« Svar #3 Dato: 26 Apr 2022 - 20:53 »

Sl. is the abbreviated form of 'Salig' meaning the late or the desceased.
Effterschrevne is the old way of 'efterskrevne' meaning the following signer's.

Mvh
Bjarke

Kerry Larson

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« Svar #4 Dato: 26 Apr 2022 - 21:33 »
Thank you Bjarke.

Kerry Larson

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« Svar #5 Dato: 27 Apr 2022 - 01:23 »
Here is Inger Rasmussdatter's first marriage to Jens Daugaard on 8 Jul 1718:  https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/en/billedviser?epid=22716178#474595,84626804, lower right.  Could I get this transcribed?  I'm hoping it will reveal her father's name.  Thank you.

Niels Just Rasmussen

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« Svar #6 Dato: 30 Apr 2022 - 22:16 »
"Onsdagen den 26. April [1718] Trolovedes [= engagement] ungkarll Jens Povelsøn Daugaard med pigen Inger Rasmusdaatter.
Caution for deres Ægteskabs Rigtighed efter Loven skre..? af efterskrefven tvende Borgere her af Byen.
Copuleret [= married] den 8. Juli [1718]
[Underskrevne] Jens Larsøn Smed & Peder Nielsøn."

So sadly no father of Inger (No Rasmus mentioned).

Jens Poulsen Daugaard borger indvaaner         21 Apr/23 Jun 1721     pg 429
WIFE:    Inger Margrethe Rasmusdtr
MODER:   Mette Jensdtr    80 enke i home
BRO:     Uldrich Poulsen
         Jorgen Poulsen   - both i Jydland
SIS:     Karen Poulsdtr  boende i Daugaard, Jylland
wgd: Mogens Pedersen snedker
[Kalundborg Byfoged; Book 4 1717-1724; film 59351]
Kilde: https://aurelia-clemons.dk/kalundbx.htm

So he is from Daugaard in Jutland (as his sister still lives there), so it is a name he got when moving to Kalundborg!

Mikkel Nielsen moller indvaaner       29 Aug/21 Oct 1729      pg #60
WIFE:    Inger Margrethe Rasmusdtr
CH:      Ane Mette Michelsdtr     7
         Dorthe Michelsdtr                 5
         Marie Michelsdtr         2
MORBRODER: Christen Jorgensen skoemager
wgd: Mathias Andersen
[Kalundborg Byfoged; Book 6 1729-1731; film 49353]
« Senest redigeret: 30 Apr 2022 - 22:47 af Niels Just Rasmussen »

Niels Just Rasmussen

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« Svar #7 Dato: 30 Apr 2022 - 22:39 »
Some records to the probate collection!

Wastrup could be Vastrup in Vastrup Sogn, Hind Herred, Ringkøbing Amt in Jutland!

Peder Michelsen Wastrup      25 Apr/30 Jun 1727      pg  #23
2WIFE:   Birgethe Olsdtr
6 CH:    Ole Pedersen     17 i laere bager i Christianhafn ( Ole Pedersen Wastrup)
         Mikkel Pedersen  14  ( unge Mikkel Pedersen )
         Clemen Pedersen 9
         Johan Christian Pedersen  4
         Hans Pedersen    1½
         Birgethe Pedersdtr       10
1WIFE:   (dod)
3 CH:    Mikkel Pedersen  27 i Rolten, nu i Jylland
         Ingeborg Pedersdtr       = Rasmus Nielsen Bostrup i Kalundborg
         Ane Margrethe Pedersdtr  tiene i Tamdrup gaar, Tye, Jylland
2WIFE.MODER: Giertrud Jensdtr enke = afg. Ole Borums
gd: Christen Nielsen Moller
wgd: Casten Jensen Cruuse
[Kalundborg Byfoged; Book 5 1720-28; film 49352]
Kilde: https://aurelia-clemons.dk/kalundbx.htm

Yet again a Møller as guardian - here for the wife Birgitte Olsdatter.

Birgitte Olufsdr ( Birgethe Olsdtr ) enke      7 Jan/29 Mar 1730      pg #67
HUSB:    Peder Michelsen Wastrup (dod)
6 CH:    Ole Pedersen     19 tiene bagersvend i Khvn
         Mikkel Pedersen  15 freqventerer den Lat: Schole i Kalundborg
         Clemen Pedersen  9
         Johan Christian Pedersen  6
         Hans Pedersen     4
         Birgethe Pedersdtr       12
HUSB.CH:         Ingeborg Pedersdtr Wastrop = Rasmus Nielsen Bostrop
         Mikkel Pedersen Wastrop  seilingsmand i Kalundborg
HUSB.SIS.CH:  Margrethe Poulsdtr = Jens Sorensen Wissing skipper
HUSB.1WIFE.SIS:  Ane Margrethe Pedersdtr = Christen N


Peder Nielsen Boestrup/Bostrup borger indvaaner        29 Aug/23 Nov 1730      pg #74
WIFE:    Mette Nissesdatter
BRO:     Rasmus Nielsen Bostrup   borger i Calundborg
         Rasmus Nielsen           boende i Hylke, Skanderborg, Jylland
         Soren Nielsen            boende i Bostrup, Ougsted sogn, Skanderborg, imellem Skanderborg og Horsens
SIS:     Else Nielsdtr    = Rasmus Eriksen i Bostrup, Ougsted sogn, Skanderborg
         Karen Nielsdtr   = Knud Kraemer i Bron ved Ovegaard, Fyen
         Maren Nielsdtr   = Fabritius rytter ved cavalleriet i Lystager gaard, Siaeland
SODSK.CH: Soren Sorensen Moller borger indvanner i Kalundborg
WIFE.MODER: ... enke = afg. Jensen
STEDSON:         Frederich Clausen, son of Claus Jensen (dod)
? Mikkel Nielsen Malling
  Christen Nielsen
gd: Knud Jensen Winding procurator
wgd: Hans Bonum
[Kalundborg Byfoged; Book 6 1729-1731; film 49353]

So here we have the locality Bostrup where some of his siblings still live -> Must be Ousted/Ovsted Sogn, Voer Herred, Skanderborg Amt, Jylland.
 

Rasmus Nielsen Boestrup      17 May/15 Jun 1731      pg  ** (#89 missing)
1 DAU:
[Kalundborg Byfoged; Book 6 1729-1731; film 49353]


We had:
Jorgen Christensen ungkarl i Rasmus Nielsen Bostrups huus       19 Feb/16 Mar 1724     pg 487
  (fodt i Bodagurer?, Hade herred, Schanderberg, Jylland)
MODER:   Kirsten Rasmusdtr = STEPFADER: 2. Niels Michelsen
BRO:     Niels Christensen
         Rasmus Christensen       = ... i Thunoe
         Rasmus Christensen       tiene i Jylland
½ BRO:   Mikkel Nielsen   tiene i Tranboe, Norge
SODSK.CH: Rasmus Nielsen Bostrup = Dorthe Jorgensdtr
[Kalundborg Byfoged; Book 4 1717-1724; film 59351]
« Senest redigeret: 30 Apr 2022 - 23:13 af Niels Just Rasmussen »

Niels Just Rasmussen

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« Svar #8 Dato: 30 Apr 2022 - 23:16 »
Rasmus Nielsen Bostrup borger indvaaner        17 May/15 Jun 1731     pg 51
WIFE:    Ingeborg Pedersdtr Wastrup
CH:      Dorthe Birgethe Rasmusdtr         4
FADER.BRO.CH: Soren Sorensen Moller i Callundborg
wgd: Mikkel Pedersen Wastrop
[Kalundborg Byfoged; Book 7 1731-1754; film 49354]

Kerry Larson

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« Svar #9 Dato: 30 Apr 2022 - 23:26 »
Thanks Niels.  Yes, lots of great records for the other Mikkel Nielsen's family.  Unfortunately, I belong to the shit shoveler. :(

Niels Just Rasmussen

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« Svar #10 Dato: 30 Apr 2022 - 23:46 »
Hi Kerry.

Can you give an overview of your direct line back until Mikkel Nielsen?
Info is getting spread over many threads - hard to figure what is where?

It would be pretty unusual if you line goes into a "natmand" family......as I said the split between "ærlig" [honest] and "uærlig" [dishonest] was pretty strict socially.

Could there be a third Mikkel Nielsen?!

Cheers
Niels



Niels Just Rasmussen

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« Svar #11 Dato: 01 Maj 2022 - 00:01 »
If you descend from a natmand it actually gets REALLY interesting as this ties to a famous murder case in Danish history.
See: https://www.berlingske.dk/boeger/da-menneskelig-fornedrelse-var-en-del-af-den-danske-virkelighed

Mikkel Jensen from Uggeløse south-east of Kalundborg disappeared November 1734 while (allegedly) visiting a family of natmænd living outside Kalundborg [natmænd could not live within the town].

This natmand was called Mikkel (32 years old), lived with his wife Karen, 2 children and his brother Hans (and a runaway younger sister called Birthe, born ca. 1716-1717)
Mikkel Jensen from Uggeløse was found with a broken neck. Suspected of potential murder the natmand-family denied, but during the process they confessed to a large crime-ring natmænd who stole farm animals all over Sjælland!
It ended with 25 (!) natmænd being arrested - then a daring escaped where 5 men succeeded in getting to Skåne and 3 ended up being executed after the non-escapee ended up in Supreme Court in Copenhagen.

The newspaper article is based on this book: Det store natmandskomplot. En historie om 1700-tallets kriminelle underverden. Forfatter: Tyge Krogh. Sider: 208. Pris: 150 kr. Forlag: Rosinante.

Cheers
Niels

« Senest redigeret: 01 Maj 2022 - 00:08 af Niels Just Rasmussen »

Kerry Larson

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« Svar #12 Dato: 01 Maj 2022 - 00:17 »
Wow!  That could be hitting close to home.  A soft link in my tree is Mikkel's daughter Dorothe who I thought moved to Ugerløse!  A Dorthe Michelsdatter married Søren Larsen in Ugerløse on 23 Nov 1755 (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-994W-ZWLF?i=369&cc=2078555 last entry, https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FV56-4M6).  She's living in nearby Bonderups, north of Store Tåstrup and south of Ugerløse, in 1787 and 1801; https://www.danishfamilysearch.com/cid216514, https://www.danishfamilysearch.com/cid895777.  What info I have on her is documented at https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Mikkelsdatter-129.

My line from my grandfather to her:
1. Clifford is the son of Anna Marie (Nelson) Larson (1886-1961)
2. Anna is the daughter of Caroline Christine (Nielsen) Nelson (1860-1929)
3. Caroline is the daughter of Christiane Hansine Christine (Christiansdatter) Christiansen (1830-aft.1906)
4. Christiane is the daughter of Christian Hansen (1797-bef.1860)
5. Christian is the son of Hans Sorensen (1756-bef.1834)
6. Hans is the son of Dorothe Mikkelsdatter (bef.1728-aft.1801)

Edit:  "The night man was also named Mikkel - to make the story complicated. He was 32 years old, married to Maren and had two children, and the family lived with Mikkel's brother Hans and his family."  That's the right age for Mikkel Nielsen and I believe he had two daughters.

Edit2:  See Soren Larsen for the baptism records of Dorthe's children - baptized in Ugerløse.
« Senest redigeret: 01 Maj 2022 - 00:28 af Kerry Larson »

Niels Just Rasmussen

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« Svar #13 Dato: 01 Maj 2022 - 00:31 »
So we have born in 1715 which really strengthens the hypothesis!

"Tirsdagen d. 26. November [1715] : natmanden Niels Andersens daatter døbt og kaldet: Berrethe Dorothea.
Kilde (s. 43, left mid): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/en/billedviser?epid=22716178#474595,84626494

So the central natmand family Mikkel, Hans and Birthe in the newspaper-article could be 3 children of Niels Andersen.

That is WAY more interesting won't you agree!

Kerry Larson

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« Svar #14 Dato: 01 Maj 2022 - 01:34 »
Yes.  Is there info that Niels Andersen had three children, or that he was related to the murderer?

I need to firm up my Hans Sorensen.  He's still a bit speculative.  If I'm going to have "the bottom scraper of Danish society" in my tree, they might as well be infamous.

Soren Larsen had a bunch of kids in Ugerlose when Hans was born, but I haven't found a baptism or confirmation record for him.  There's also a Soren Larsen in Store Tåstrup who was having kids at the same time, but again, not Hans.  Hans married in Store Tåstrup.

FamilySearch indexed records of
Soren Larsen in Ugerlose
Soren Larsen in Store Tastrup
No father named Soren with a son named Hans in either location.

Kerry Larson

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« Svar #15 Dato: 01 Maj 2022 - 02:19 »
Just as it was getting interesting, I've found a better match for Hans Sorensen's father, Soren Persen in Store Tåstrup.
* https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:H2S5-3G6Z
* https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L94W-6CBN (top right)
The age appears to fit his census records.  I can't remember what led me to think his parents were Soren Larsen and Dorothe Mikkelsdatter, but it was the early days of my Danish genealogy research.

Other than the date and names, what does the baptism record say?  Home of Soren Persen?
« Senest redigeret: 01 Maj 2022 - 02:22 af Kerry Larson »

Niels Just Rasmussen

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« Svar #16 Dato: 01 Maj 2022 - 02:56 »
So found some info here (and there might be tons more about the case).

Kalundborg Byfoged
Justitsprotokol (1729-1756).
..Michel Natmand, Hans Natmand.
Michel Natmands kone Karen og søster Birgitha (also called Birte in the text).
Stiffdatter Anna Maria [so most likely a daughter of Karen, before she was ?married? to Mikkel].
Kilde (s. 312, right page): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20651015#314948,64545894

So Mikkel Nielsen "natmand" has a daughter Dorothea in 1728 (possibly with Karen).
- so after the arrest in 1734-1735 -> what happens to this young child Dorothea Mikkelsdatter.

Trolovelser. Ugerløse Sogn.
Anno 1755.
Dom. 5. Post Trinitatis.
Søren Lars[en] og Dorthe Michelsdatter af Uggerløse.
Forlovere: G[amle] Hans Nielsen & Peder Christophers[en].
Kilde (s. 88, venstre): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17119449#158135,26555173

Could Hans Nielsen be "Hans Nielsen, natmand".
Then he should have been released from prison (and still alive?) which I found less likely.

Found a page with the family info on google books.

Ages is perhaps from the trial in 1735?!

Mikkel. 32 years.
Wife: Karen[Larsdatter].
Children:
Hans. 5 years.
Johan 3,5 years. (Baptized 1732. Kilde, s. 99 højre): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=22716178#474595,84626550
Stepdaughter: Anna Maria 11 years.
NB: So this book doesn't mention Dorothea born in 1728?!

Brother: Hans. 24 years.
His wife: Anna Margrethe.
Son: Laurids, baby.
Sister: Birthe. 19 years.
Kilde: https://books.google.dk/books?id=KaBUDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT15&lpg=PT15&dq=natm%C3%A6nd+kalundborg+1734&source=bl&ots=_RoRSbOZtk&sig=ACfU3U2rZOSgmlSlJBJn8I6mlzW37eq48g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjQ_Ky4gb33AhXH-ioKHRUtAdk4ChDoAXoECBoQAw#v=onepage&q=natm%C3%A6nd%20kalundborg%201734&f=false

Later pages gives more family information.

Brother: Anders, natmand in Næstved.
Uncle (fathers brother): Frands [Andersen], natmand in Ringsted.
Uncle (fathers brother): Mads [Andersen] (which the court didn't find)
Father: Niels Andersen. Had been natmand in Kalundborg for 23 years (1706-1729), but had relocated to Nykøbing Falster.

Niels Just Rasmussen

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« Svar #17 Dato: 01 Maj 2022 - 03:23 »
A candidate we can dismiss as he isn't married in 1787:

Folketælling 1787: Holbæk, Merløse, Store Taastrup, Merløse, , 83, FT-1787, B0068
Søren Hansen     64     Enke(mand)     Husbonde     Gårdbeboer og kromand      
Lars Sørensen     38     Ugift     Barn af mandens 1. ægteskab           
Anne Cathrine Sørensdatter     35     Ugift     Barn af mandens 1. ægteskab           
Hans Sørensen     30     Ugift     Barn af mandens 1. ægteskab     "Pukkelrygget"     
Christian Sørensen     19     Ugift     Barn af mandens 2. ægteskab           
Sidse Sørensdatter     16     Ugift     Barn af mandens 2. ægteskab           
Ludvig Sørensen     11     Ugift     Barn af mandens 2. ægteskab 
Kilde: Dansk Demografisk Database.

Dåben 1754: "Søren Per[sens] barn af Kyringe kaldt Hans". [Kyringe is in Store Tåstrup Sogn]
Niels Larsens kone baar barnet.
Kilde (s. 71, left top): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17118827#156930,26315582

So you can have tons of potential candidates......you have to cross check with families and possibly probates to figure it out. [When people move to another parish it is always a headache]
The search engines probably only have a small fraction of the real number of people and even the original Danish census can have a fairly large number of the local (more transient) population unrecorded in some of the "worst" parishes (where I have heard it can be 1/3 of the population in these early census's).

Marriage 1783:
ung karl Hans Sørensen og pige Sophie Ottesdatter af Ordrup...
Kilde (s. 102, left top): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17118827#500154,88559510
NB: Sadly the church book doesn't often state for any groom where their origin lies, only the brides.
Sadly he can come from anywhere!

Folketælling 1787: Holbæk, Merløse, Store Taastrup, Ordrup, , 138, FT-1787, B0068
Hans Sørensen     31     Gift     Mand     Bonde og husmand      
Sophie Ollesdatter     31     Gift     Kone 
Kilde: Dansk Demografisk Database.

Folketælling 1801: Holbæk, Merløse, Store Taastrup, Ordrup, 20, 167, FT-1801, C1288
Hans Sørensen     47    Gift     Mand     Huusmd med Jord      
Sophie Ottesdatter     41     Gift     Hans Kone           
Rasmus Hansen     9     Ugift     Deres Børn           
Kristian Hansen     4     Ugift     Deres Børn 
Kilde: Dansk Demografisk Database.

So yeah it's very uncertain who Hans Sørensens father is!
As for him 31 year in 1787, but 47 years in 1801 - when is he born?!
« Senest redigeret: 01 Maj 2022 - 03:56 af Niels Just Rasmussen »

Kerry Larson

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« Svar #18 Dato: 01 Maj 2022 - 06:36 »
I'm aware that the indexed records aren't complete.  I do try to review the written records but I'm very slow and very poor at doing it.  I can pick out some names and dates, that's about it.  I should have done better on Hans Sorensen.

Niels, from what you're saying, the unmarried Hans Sørensen in the 1787 census might be the son of Søren Persen in the baptism record.  That's interesting and still leaves the door open.

There was a 76 y/o Soren Larsen from Ordrup who died in 1797.  https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17118827#156931,26315770, #38  His wife might have been Maren Handsdatter from Ordrup who died the year before.  https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17118827#156931,26315769, #23 on right.  So neither his age or wife are a match for Dorthe Mikkelsdatter, but it's possible for them to be "my" Hans Sorensen's parents.

One clue might be Hans Sørensen's marriage record calling him "ung karl" which suggests that there are two of similar age in the parish.

Very interesting additional details about the natmanden family.  Thanks for your help and patience Niels.

I found another marriage/betrothal record for Soren Larsen and Dorthe Micheldatter.  Guess who is a witness?  Hans Nielsen!  https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/en/billedviser?bsid=500200#500200,88579412, first under 1755.

Edit:  I don't think there was time for Soren and Dorthe to have a son named Hans.  They were married in Nov 1755 and daughter Anna Magrete was born in Feb 1757 and children followed each year for a couple of years.  There's no Hans born in the parish where they were married and the other children appeared.  The only other possibility is that the other children belong to a different Soren Larsen which I haven't completely investigated.
« Senest redigeret: 01 Maj 2022 - 06:46 af Kerry Larson »

Niels Just Rasmussen

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« Svar #19 Dato: 01 Maj 2022 - 12:19 »
Søren Persen (?Pedersen?) in Kyringe.
Unclear if one or two different people.....

So where is he married?

His oldest son should be a "Peder/Per" based on the naming convention of 1st son named after the paternal grandfather!

Dåben 1754: "Søren Per[sens] barn af Kyringe kaldt Hans [Sørensen]". [Kyringe is in Store Tåstrup Sogn]
Niels Larsens kone baar barnet.
Kilde (s. 71, left top): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17118827#156930,26315582

1757:
Søren Pederens barn fra Kyringe døbt og kaldet Anne [Sørensen].
Kilde (s. 75, right mid): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17118827#156930,26315586

1760: Lætare Die Paasche.
Søren Pedersens barn af Kyringe døbt og kaldt Niels [Sørensen].
Kilde (s. 82, left): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17118827#156930,26315593

1762: 14. Post Trinitatis.
Søren Pers[en] søn af Kyringe døbt og kaldet Lars [Sørensen].
Kilde (s.62, top left): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17118827#156930,26315597

1765: Festo Trinitatis.
Søren Pedersens søn Christian [Sørensen] af Kyringe.
Kilde (s. 5 right mid): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17118827#156931,26315686

A Søren Persen in Mærløse dies in 1780: Age 45.
Kilde (s. 80, nr. 6 left): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17118827#156931,26315761
&
Could be this guy in Oeders Efterretninger 1771, 9 years earlier.
Mandens navn:   Søren Pedersen   Mandens erhverv:   Gaardmand
Mandens alder:   37   Mandens civilstand:   Gift
Mandens nr. ægteskab:   1   Hustrus alder:   46
Hustrus civilstand:   Gift   Hustrus nr. ægteskab:   2
Sogn:   Store Taastrup   Herred:   Merløse
Amt:   Holbæk
Indtastningsnr:   C3735   Løbenr.:   94
Kilde: Dansk Demografisk Database.
NB: Can probably be excluded as too young.

Died 1788: Søren Persens kone Karen Jensdatter af Tostrup. 42 years.
Kilde (s. 84, left nr. 25): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17118827#156931,26315765
&
Folketælling 1787: Holbæk, Merløse, Store Taastrup, Taastrup (Tostrup), , 13, FT-1787, B0068
Søren Pedersen     38     Gift     Mand     Bonde og husmand samt Nationalsoldat      
Karen Jensdatter     42     Gift     Kone           
Karen Sørensdatter     9     Ugift     Barn 
Kilde: Dansk Demografisk Database.
NB: So he can be excluded as too young.

So we have this guy in Oeders Efterretninger (1771) still unaccounted for:

Mandens navn:   Søren Pedersen   Mandens erhverv:   Indsidder og Daglejer [So a poor guy with little chance of a probate]
Mandens alder:   51   Mandens civilstand:   Gift
Mandens nr. ægteskab:   1   Hustrus alder:   40
Hustrus civilstand:   Gift   Hustrus nr. ægteskab:   1
Sogn:   Store Taastrup   Herred:   Merløse
Amt:   Holbæk
Indtastningsnr:   C3735   Løbenr.:   85
Kilde: Dansk Demografisk Database.


Kerry Larson

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« Svar #20 Dato: 01 Maj 2022 - 16:41 »
I should have paid more attention to Hans and Otte's marriage record.  It appears that their witnesses were Otte Olsen of Merløse and Per Knudsen of Ordup.  The entry immediately above is for Lars Soren and Magrete Sorensdatter of Ordup with again Per Knudsen as witness with Jens Christesen of Ordrup.  Might of sibling of Hans have gotten married around the same time?
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/en/billedviser?bsid=500256#500256,88608288
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/en/billedviser?bsid=500154#500154,88559510

Kerry Larson

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« Svar #21 Dato: 01 Maj 2022 - 18:59 »
Baptism entries from Store Taastrup for fathers named Soren around the years Hans was born:

I think this is another baptism record for a child of Soren Persen:  https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/en/billedviser?bsid=500153#500153,88559291 (mid right).  What is the name of the child?  There are so many names there I can't tell.

In this full color book, the entry for Hans is here:  https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/en/billedviser?bsid=500153#500153,88559293

Soren Larsens?? Datter from Merlose.  Child's name?   I don't understand this at all.  https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/en/billedviser?bsid=500153#500153,88559295 (first under 1756)

Soren Christensen's son, name?  https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/en/billedviser?bsid=500153#500153,88559296 (mid left)

Another Soren Persen's from Kyringe, ?? Anne:  https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/en/billedviser?bsid=500153#500153,88559297 (mid right)

Soren Larsen's datter of Merlose, Anna??:  https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/en/billedviser?bsid=500153#500153,88559298 (mid left)

Soren Larsen ???? Child's name?  https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/en/billedviser?bsid=500153#500153,88559302 (mid left)

Soren Persens??? Niels??  https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/en/billedviser?bsid=500153#500153,88559303 (mid left)

Soren Nielsen's datter of Merlose, Karen:  https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/en/billedviser?bsid=500153#500153,88559304 (mid left)

Soren Larsens datter Ana:  https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/en/billedviser?bsid=500153#500153,88559304 (bottom right)




Kerry Larson

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« Svar #22 Dato: 02 Maj 2022 - 05:45 »
Niels, I looked at your Google book link.  I saw that Niels Andersen was identified as Mikkel the murderer's father.  I almost feel a little bad that I screwed up my genealogy and am not connected. :-[  Thanks very much for all of the additional sources.  I've looked at quite a few more as well and think it really is most likely that my Hans Sorensen was from Kyringe as it's just 2.4 km from Ordrup and he seems to be the only Hans Sorensen in the area born at the right time.  I do need to check on some of the other nearby parishes.  Thanks again for all of your great help.  Kerry

Niels Just Rasmussen

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« Svar #23 Dato: 02 Maj 2022 - 14:21 »
Hi Kerry.

Here are the baptism entries as I see them:

---------
I think this is another baptism record for a child of Soren Persen:  https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/en/billedviser?bsid=500153#500153,88559291 (mid right).  What is the name of the child?  There are so many names there I can't tell.

1754:
"Søren Vævers [=Weaver] barn af Tostrup kaldt Michael Vilhelm"

So being a weaver was an occupation for poor "husmænd" or "indsiddere", so he is also definitely a potential candidate....

-----------
Soren Larsens?? Datter from Merlose.  Child's name?   I don't understand this at all.  https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/en/billedviser?bsid=500153#500153,88559295 (first under 1756):

1756:
?unge? Sørens Larsens datter fra Merløse døbt og kaldt Magrete.
-----------

Soren Christensen's son, name?  https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/en/billedviser?bsid=500153#500153,88559296 (mid left)

1756:
Søren Christensens søn af Merløse døbt og kaldt Ole.
------------

Another Soren Persen's from Kyringe, ?? Anne:  https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/en/billedviser?bsid=500153#500153,88559297 (mid right)

This one I had found in description of Søren Pedersen from Kyringe above.

1757:
Søren Pederens barn fra Kyringe døbt og kaldet Anne [Sørensen].
Kilde (s. 75, right mid): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17118827#156930,26315586
-----------

Soren Larsen's datter of Merlose, Anna??:  https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/en/billedviser?bsid=500153#500153,88559298 (mid left)

1757:
Søren Larsens datter af Merløse døbt og kaldt Anna.
------------

Soren Larsen ???? Child's name?  https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/en/billedviser?bsid=500153#500153,88559302 (mid left)

1759:
Søren Larsens barn af Merløse ?....? og kaldt Jørgen [word possible equivalent to modern "overstænket"  meaning to "spray water over" thus baptism]
------------

Soren Persens??? Niels??  https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/en/billedviser?bsid=500153#500153,88559303 (mid left)

This one I had also found when looking through children of Søren Pedersen/Persen in Kyringe, above.

1760: Lætare Die Paasche.
Søren Pedersens barn af Kyringe døbt og kaldt Niels [Sørensen].
Kilde (s. 82, left): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17118827#156930,26315593
------------

Soren Nielsen's datter of Merlose, Karen:  https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/en/billedviser?bsid=500153#500153,88559304 (mid left)

1760:
Søren Nielsens datter af Merløse og kaldt Karen.
-------------

Soren Larsens datter Ana:  https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/en/billedviser?bsid=500153#500153,88559304 (bottom right)

1761:
Søren Larsens datter af Merløse ?overstænket? og kaldt Ana.

So far Søren Pedersen/Person (same or two persons?) in Kyringe seems the best candidate for being the father of "your" Hans Sørensen. If so then baptised in 1754.
A problem is that he seems to have moved into Kyringe (and I also haven't found his burial, so he could have moved away again).

So we have to find his marriage (to also have his wife name and most likely origin) and a possible baptism of a likely first son Peder (according to the traditional naming "rules").

PS: Niels Andersen "Natmand" was the father of Mikkel-, Hans- & Anders- (Nielsen) "natmand" and father of Birgitha/Birthe Nielsdatter. Niels Andersen "natmand" had the brothers Anders- and Mads.
the farmer Mikkel Jensen was the one who died (broken neck), but the natmænd wasn't proven guilty of the murder, but was proven guilty of their crime-ring all over Sjælland stealing live-stock!
It was not possible to determine whether Mikkel Jensens death was murder or accident.
« Senest redigeret: 02 Maj 2022 - 14:31 af Niels Just Rasmussen »

Kerry Larson

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« Svar #24 Dato: 05 Maj 2022 - 00:39 »
There was a 45 y/o Soren Persen of Merlose that died in 1780.  Seems like a possibility but on the young side to be Hans father and not located in Kyringe:  https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/en/billedviser?bsid=500256#500256,88608316

A couple of other 'Persen' records to add to the list:
Soren Pedersen's son Christian of Kyringe died age 16 months,  Dom 16 p trinit, 1766;  #26, https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/en/billedviser?bsid=500154#500154,88559487

Another 'Persen' getting married around the right time, Hans Persen with Niels Persen as witness.  Dom 6 p trinit on right:  https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/en/billedviser?bsid=500153#500153,88559365 and again at https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/en/billedviser?bsid=500153#500153,88559366, last on right

Edit:  The contents page for this Store Tastrup book says that the confirmation records can be found in Ugerlose:  http://ao.salldata.dk/vis1.php?bsid=500154&side=6.  I see a Hans Sorensen on left page, sixth from the bottom in the left column.  http://ao.salldata.dk/vis1.php?bsid=500201&side=53  What other information is included?  He's the only Hans Sorensen I see in the right years for his confirmation.






« Senest redigeret: 05 Maj 2022 - 00:53 af Kerry Larson »

Niels Just Rasmussen

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« Svar #25 Dato: 05 Maj 2022 - 14:37 »
The confirmation 1777 says:

"Hans [Sørensen]. Søren Hansens søn i Merløse. 18 years old." [So born around 1759].
NB: No clue what the x before his name stands for!

Being 45 years old in 1780 - it would make him pretty young (19 years old) being the father 26 years earlier in 1754.
If you can find an approximate change of location from Kyringe to Merløse it would strengthen him as a candidate. So we don't have a Søren Person/Pedersen in Kyringe and Merløse occurring at the same time.

This could potentially be him in Oeders Efterretninger 1771:
Mandens navn:   Søren Pedersen   Mandens erhverv:   Gaardmand
Mandens alder:   37   Mandens civilstand:   Gift
Mandens nr. ægteskab:   1   Hustrus alder:   46
Hustrus civilstand:   Gift   Hustrus nr. ægteskab:   2
Sogn:   Store Taastrup   Herred:   Merløse
Amt:   Holbæk
Indtastningsnr:   C3735   Løbenr.:   94
Kilde: Dansk Demografisk Database.
NB: The Søren Persen who died in 1780 as 45 years old is written as "gaardmand".
So he has married an older wife in now her second marriage.
So he has still to be in the first marriage in 1771 and the wife needs to be in the second marriage for it to "our" Søren Persen

Kerry Larson

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« Svar #26 Dato: 05 Maj 2022 - 15:56 »
Thank you Niels.  That's helpful.