Peder Frederiksen

Startet af Art Berggreen, 05 Mar 2022 - 02:29

Forrige emne - Næste emne

Art Berggreen

I've been working on Peder Frederiksen, the second husband of my gg-grandmother Ane Marie Olesdatter.

In their marriage record in 1847, it lists his age as 37, making his birth date around 1810 (#2).
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=21913159#429167,78546783

In the 1850 census in Sipperup, Ronnebaek parish, it lists his birth place as Herlufmagle parish, Praesto Amt.

In his second marriage it lists his birth date as 4 Jul 1810 (#4).
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?bsid=429083#429083,78544121

I believe that that this is his birth/baptism record in Herlufmagle parish (top left). Note birth location as Herluflille.
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17115896#151310,25136598

Looking for a confirmation record, the only thing I have found is this one in nearby Glumsø parish (#3).
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?bsid=428758#428758,78532195
The birth date and location matches.  It appears to list a step father and actual birth father.  The big issue is the father's last name doesn't match.  What are people opinions?

Art Berggreen

Art Berggreen

#1
Citat fra: Art Berggreen Dato 05 Mar 2022 - 02:29
I've been working on Peder Frederiksen, the second husband of my gg-grandmother Ane Marie Olesdatter.

In their marriage record in 1847, it lists his age as 37, making his birth date around 1810 (#2).
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=21913159#429167,78546783

In the 1850 census in Sipperup, Ronnebaek parish, it lists his birth place as Herlufmagle parish, Praesto Amt.

In his second marriage it lists his birth date as 4 Jul 1810 (#4).
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?bsid=429083#429083,78544121

I believe that that this is his birth/baptism record in Herlufmagle parish (top left). Note birth location as Herluflille.
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17115896#151310,25136598

Looking for a confirmation record, the only thing I have found is this one in nearby Glumsø parish (#3).
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?bsid=428758#428758,78532195
The birth date and location matches.  It appears to list a step father and actual birth father.  The big issue is the father's last name doesn't match.  What are people opinions?

Update:

I find a record of the death of a Frederick Hansen in Herluflille, Herlufmagle parish 24 Jul 1821.
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=21883141#428842,78534788

and then a marriage of widower Povel Ditmarsen of Glumsø and widow Birthe Pedersdatter of Herluflille
on 12 Nov 1824.
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=21883141#428840,78534728
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?bsid=428762#428762,78532303

Art Berggreen

Ole Westermann

Art

Peder Frederiksen
Confirmation record:
At his stepfather Povel Ditmar(sen), smallholder in Glumsø.
Son of late smallholder Frederik Jensen in Herluflille
Born 4 July 1810
   ------------------ birth and bapt:
The 4th of July 1810 smallholder Frederik Hansen from Herluflille Bøgede a son born, and bapt. the 12th PEDER.
The baptism conf. 12th Sunday after Trinity, carried by farmer Hans Nielsen's wife of Herluflille.
Christian Hansen and Jems Hansen same place were witnesses.
  ------------------ death and burial
1821 24th/27th of July  Frederich Hansen  smallholder in Herluflille Bøgede  38 y.o.
  ------------------ marriage of his widow
1824  12th of Nov. Widower Povel Ditmarsen of Glumsøe and widow Birthe Pedersdatter of Herluflille

- so the puzzle is in place

Ole

Art Berggreen

Thanks Ole!

So would you agree that the name Frederik Jensen in the confirmation record was an error and should have been Frederik Hansen?   All the other records seem to fit together

Also it looks likely that Birthe Pederdatter was Peder Frederiksen's mother.  I also found a Margrethe Frederiksdatter born in 1808 that may have been an older sister.

It is too bad there are no censuses between 1803 and 1834.

Art

Ole Westermann

#4
Yes, Jensen at the confirmation record is of course an error.
And Margrethe born Febr.15, 1808 must be his sister.

Their marriage is here in 1805
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17115896#151310,25136561 top left
The 30th June
Bachelor and houseleaser Friderich Hansen and the widow Birthe Lars Hansens*
  Best men: farmer Hans Rasmusen and Jens Hansen
*had been married to Lars Hansen - could not find his death or their marriage - but it must be Birthe Pedersdatter,
  who at the census 1787 resp.1801 is aged 15 resp. 26 (and in 1824 - 54 yo) - very often totally unreliable !!

And Frederik Hansen in 1787 and 1801
Præstø, Tybjerg, Herlufmagle, Herluflille Bye, En gaard, 91, FT-1787, C0005
Hans Nielsen     53     Gift     Mand     Gmd      
Margrethe Nielsdatter  45     Gift     Kone           
Jens Hansen     21     Ugift     Deres barn           
Niels Hansen     17     Ugift     Deres barn           
Kirsten Hansdatter     11     Ugift     Deres barn           
Christian Hansen     10     Ugift     Deres barn           
Peder Hansen     7     Ugift     Deres barn           
Friderich Hansen    5     Ugift     Deres barn

Præstø, Tybjerg, Herlufmagle, Herluflille Bye, , 9, FT-1801, B8974
Hans Nielsen Smed  67     Gift     huusbonde     bonde og gaardbeboer      
Margrete Nielsdatter  59     Gift     hans kone           
Christian Hansen     24     Ugift     deres barn           
Frederich Hansen     16     Ugift     deres barn           
Niels Pedersen     12     Ugift     tiennestefolk           
Kirsten Jensdatter     22     Ugift     tiennestefolk


Art Berggreen

Ole, mange tak for din hjælp!

And it is a good reminder not to take data from primary sources like parish records or census records without comparing with other data and using some logic!

Now off to find the next puzzle  :D,
Art

Art Berggreen

I think I've found Birthe Pedersdatter in the 1850 census.  It lists a birthplace on Fyn as Nære Sogn, but I can't find any parish that might match.  Anyone have any ideas?

And can anyone tell me what the note after Birthe Pedersdatter is in the this death record (1868 #6):
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=21883143#424074,78076134

Art
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Year:    FT-1850   Source reference:   145   
Cadastre/Address:   Et Huus   
Household No:   16 - F2      Number af families/house:   2   
Name:   Birthe Pedersdatter   
Age:   50      Civil status:   Enke   
Birth place:   Nære Sogn i Fyen   
Occupation:   Understøttes af Sognet, Huusmd-Enke   
Parish:    Holme Olstrup   District:    Hammer
Shire:    Præstø   Place name:    Olstrup Bye
Source entry No:    C9306   Record No.:    85
All members of the household

Name:     Age:     Married?:     Pos. in household:     Occupation:     BirTD place:
Birthe Pedersdatter     50     Enke            Understøttes af Sognet, Huusmd-Enke      Nære Sogn i Fyen 
Karen Marie Rasmusdatter     12     -            hendes Datter, Hjælp af Fattigvæsenet      I Sognet 


Ole Westermann

#7
Birthe Pedersdatter aged 54 when ~ Povel Ditmarsen in 1824 - i.e. was born ca 1770 !

Ole

Art Berggreen

Wow Ole, thanks again for all your effort and quick response!

Do you agree that the death record I posted above for Birthe Pedersdatter is her, even if the age seems to be far off?

Art

Niels Just Rasmussen

#9
Citat fra: Art Berggreen Dato 07 Mar 2022 - 17:55
I think I've found Birthe Pedersdatter in the 1850 census.  It lists a birthplace on Fyn as Nære Sogn, but I can't find any parish that might match.  Anyone have any ideas?

Could it be Nørre Nærå Sogn, Skam Herred, Odense Amt?
or Sønder Nærå Sogn, Åsum Herred, Odense Amt?

They are so far geographically from each other, that they locally might both have been called just Nærå - which, with typically Danish pronunciation "laziness" on syllables after the first stressed syllable, could be /Nære/ in speech?!

Ole Westermann

The death record in 1868 is not her - born ca 1815.
Povel Ditmarsen died in Glumsø on Febr.1, 1829.
But I did not find the death of Birthe Pedersdatter (born ca 1770) there.

Ole

Art Berggreen

Oops, sorry but I got crossed up!  Peder Frederiksen's mother was a Birthe Pedersdatter born abt 1770.  His second wife (Ane Margrethe Rasmusdatter) also had mother named Birthe Pedersdatter and was the one born in 1800.  I am sure the the Birthe Pedersdatter in the 1850 census in Holme Olstrup parish is the wife's mother.  She is the one born in Nørre Nærå.

Art

Niels Just Rasmussen

Hi Art.

You are correct that the Birthe Pedersdatter born ca. 1800 in "Nære" Fyn is (most likely) the mother of Ane Margrethe Rasmusdatter.

Census 1834: Præstø, Hammer, Holme Olstrup, Holmeolstrup, et Huus, 51, FT-1834, C5336
Navn:    Alder:    Status:    Stilling i familien:    Erhverv:    Fødested:
Rasmus Andersen     44     Gift          Huusmand og Bødker      
Birthe Pedersdatter     34     Gift          hans Kone      
Ane Margrethe Rasmussen     13     Ugift          deres Børn 
    
Maren Rasmusdatter     12     Ugift          deres Børn      
Birthe Kirstine Rasmusdatter     9     Ugift          deres Børn      
Anders Rasmusen     8     Ugift          deres Børn      
Peter Rasmusen     6     Ugift          deres Børn      
Susanne Rasmusdatter     1     Ugift          deres Børn 
Kilde: Dansk Demografisk Database
&
Census 1840: Præstø, Hammer, Holme Olstrup, Olstrup Bye, et Huus, 58, FT-1840, C5869
Navn:    Alder:    Status:    Stilling i familien:    Erhverv:    Fødested:
Rasmus Andersen     50     Gift          Bødker      
Birthe Pedersdatter     40     Gift          hans Kone     
Anders Rasmusen     14     Ugift          deres Børn      
Peter Rasmusen     12     Ugift          deres Børn      
Susanne Rasmusdatter     6     Ugift          deres Børn      
Karen Marie Rasmusdatter     2     Ugift          deres Børn      
Kilde: Dansk Demografisk Database.
&
Census 1845: Præstø, Hammer, Holme Olstrup, Olstrup Bye, et huus, 20, FT-1845, B4791
Navn:    Alder:    Status:    Stilling i familien:    Erhverv:    Fødested:
Jens Nielsen     28     Gift          huusmand med jord     Herlufmagle sogn 
Margrethe Kirstine Pedersdatter     27     Gift          hans kone     Everdrup sogn 
Maren Kirstine Jensdatter     6     -          deres børn     Fensmark sogn 
Hans Peter Jensen     3     -          deres børn     i Sognet 
Birthe Pedersdatter     45     Enke        understøttes af fattigvæsenet     Nære?? sogn i Fyen 
Susanne Rasmusdatter     12     -          hendes døttre     i Sognet 
Karen Marie Rasmusdatter     7     -          hendes døttre     i Sognet 
Kilde: Dansk Demografisk Database.
&
Census 1850: Præstø, Hammer, Holme Olstrup, Olstrup Bye, Et Huus, 16 - F2, FT-1850, C9306
Navn:    Alder:    Status:    Stilling i familien:    Erhverv:    Fødested:
Birthe Pedersdatter     50     Enke          Understøttes af Sognet, Huusmd-Enke     Nære Sogn i Fyen 
Karen Marie Rasmusdatter     12     -          hendes Datter, Hjælp af Fattigvæsenet     I Sognet 
Kilde: Dansk Demografisk Database.

Niels Just Rasmussen

#13
Died 1. February 1829 in Glumsø Sogn.
Name: Povel Ditmarsen.
Huusmand af Glumsøe.
66 Aar.
Kilde: https://www.danishfamilysearch.dk/churchbook/sogn987/churchlisting141077/opslag15617223
NB: Maybe there is a probate?!

Næsbyholm og Bavelse Godser.
Register til skifteprotokol (1825-1837).
Povel Ditmarsen. Huusfæster i Glumsøe. Folio 103.
Kilde (s. 15): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=22917448#486575,86653494
NB: So he should also have had a "Fæstebrev"!
No registre so it has to be looked through manually.

Næsbyholm og Bavelse Godser.
Skifteprotokol (1825-1837).
The probate informs that the widow Birthe Pedersdatter after her husband Povel Ditmarsens [written Poul Ditmar] death the 1. February 1829 wants to sit in "uskiftet bo" with children [which are not named as no "skifte" before she dies]
Kilde (s. 107, top left): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=22917444#486574,86653026
NB: So she is still alive at this date, but I can only find a probate of a Birthe Pedersdatter who is a widow of Muurmester Møller in Næsbye.
Kilde (s. 2): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=22917448#486575,86653481
NB: She is a Birthe Kirstine Pedersdatter, so not the one we are looking for.
Kilde (s. 313, left): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=22917444#486574,86653232

If you wants to search for Povel Ditmarsens "Fæstebrev" in Glumsø under "Næsbyholm og Bavelse Godser".
See: https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=21025417#328222,66079194

Niels Just Rasmussen

#14
Vordingborg-Tryggevælde Amter.
Skiftebehandlingsprotol for Vordingborg Amt (1777-1805).
9. September 1805.
Deceased: "indsidder på Herluflille Mark" Lars Hansen.
Widow: ?Birt? Pedersdatter.
Daughter: Marte Sophie 3 years old !!
Witnesses: ?....? Friderick Hansen, her present husband & Huusmand Christopher Nielsen.
Kilde (s. 544 right): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17021200#129960,33821498
NB: Maybe Ole can extract som more information out of this?

This must be the daughter in the Census 1834:
Præstø, Tybjerg, Næsby Sogn, Næsbyeholms Teglværk, -, 62, FT-1834, C4651
Navn:    Alder:    Status:    Stilling i familien:    Erhverv:    Fødested:
Hans Christian Andersen     34     Gift          Teglbrænder      
Marthe Sophie Larsdatter     33     Gift          hans Kone      
Andreas Julius Hansen     5     Ugift          deres Børn      
Birthe Marie Hansen     2     Ugift          deres Børn      
Sidse Pedersdatter     19     Ugift          Tjenestepige     
Kilde: Dansk Demografisk Database. 

Census 1850: Holbæk, Merløse, Tersløse Sogn, Brandstrup Bye, et Teglværk, 14, FT-1850, C1484
Navn:    Alder:    Status:    Stilling i familien:    Erhverv:    Fødested:
Hans Christian Andersen     50     Gift          Teglbrænder, Huusfader     Fensmark Præstø Amt 
Marthe Sophie Larsdatter     48     Gift          hans Kone     Herlufmagle Præstø A. 
Lars Christian Hansen     22     Ugift          deres Børn, indkaldt til Krigstjeneste     Næsby Præstø A. 
Birthe Marie Hansen     18     Ugift          deres Børn     Næsby Præstø A. 
Ferdinand Hansen     16     Ugift          deres Børn     Næsby Præstø A. 
Niels Hansen     15     Ugift          deres Børn     Næsby Præstø A. 
Sophie Hansen     10     Ugift          deres Børn     Her i Sognet [Tersløse sogn Holbæk amt] 
Maren Nielsdatter     30     Ugift          Tjenestepige     Munkebjergby Sorø Amt 
Kilde: Dansk Demografisk Database.

Niels Just Rasmussen

#15
Census 1860: Holbæk, Merløse, Tersløse Sogn, Brandstrup Skoledistrikt, Brandstrup By, Et Hus, 162, FT-1860, D5581
Navn:    Alder:    Status:    Stilling i familien:    Erhverv:    Fødested:
Hans Christian Andersen     60     Gift     Husfader. Teglbrænder          Fensmark Sogn, Præstø Amt 
Marthe Sophie Larsen     59     Gift     Hans Kone          Herlufmagle Sogn, Præstø Amt 
Lars Christian Hansen     32     Ugift     Deres Barn          Næsby Sogn, Præstø Amt 
Niels Hansen     23     Ugift     Deres Barn          Tersløse Sogn, Holbæk Amt 
Mine Jensen     30     Ugift     Husfaders beslægtede. her i besøg for længere tid          Herlufmagle Sogn, Præstø Amt 
Karen Knudsdatter     49     Gift     Tjener her som Pige          Borup 
Kilde: Dansk Demografisk Database.
NB: She is not born in Herlufmagle Sogn, but probably moved there when she was quite young.

Could this be her?!

Confirmed 1816 in Næsby Sogn.
Name: Marthe Sophie Larsdatter. Baptised: 30. November 1801 in Hammer Sogn.
Father: Lars Hansen in Hammer.
Kilde (s. 2): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=21913149#428967,78539417
I can't find any Marthe Sophie Larsdatter baptised in Herlufmagle Sogn!
That  Lars Hansen was in Hammer at the baptism in 1801 doesn't meant he couldn't have been an "indsidder" in Herlufmagle Sogn some time in between 1801 and his death in 1805?

Baptised 30. November 1801 in Hammer Sogn.
"Huusmand Lars Hansen i Riselodder [= Riselod (Huse) today] med datter": Marthe Sophie [Larsdatter].
Kilde (s. 86): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17115617#150776,25006346

NB: How amazing! I have just helped to find a person here in "slægt og data", where we found that a woman, who emigrated to the US, who had been born in Riselod.
A place so small and obscure you can't even find it on google maps!
[It's just south of the town "Lov" in Hammer Sogn]
Thread: https://forum.slaegt.dk/index.php/topic,178186.0.html

Now it is promising! This simply has to be them!

Census 1801: Præstø, Hammer, Hammer Sogn, Hammer Bye, boer paa marken, 17, FT-1801, B6395
Navn:    Alder:    Status:    Stilling i familien:    Erhverv:    Fødested:
Lars Hansen    31     Gift     mand     huusmand uden jord      
Birthe Pedersdatter     29     Gift     hans kone 
Kilde: Dansk Demografisk Database.
NB: So the hunt for the daughter wielded success!
That they "boer på marken" [live on the outfield] must mean that they lived between "Lov town" in the north and "Hammer town" in the south connected by the road "Hammersvej" where Riselod is located!
This census is just before Marthe Sohie Larsdatter is born and then between 1801 and 1805 they relocate to Herluflille in Herlufmagle Sogn, where Lars Hansen dies.

Now we need to find their marriage! It's generally always for previously unmarried girls, that the marriage takes place in the Bride's parish!

Art Berggreen

Niels, thank you for all your effort!

I just want to make sure that you know that my primary interest in this Birthe Pedersdatter is her marriage to Frederik Hansen and their son Peter Frederiksen who became the stepfather to one of my great-grandfathers.  I'd like to find her birth and death dates and locations if possible.  I'll also add her other husbands (Lars Hansen and Povel Ditmarsen) for completeness.  I have been in contact with descendants of Peter Frederiksen and am documenting some of his ancestry for their sake.  I doubt that I will document the daughter of the first marriage (Marthe Sophie Larsen) and her life, because it is pretty far from my and their lines.

Best,
Art Berggreen

Niels Just Rasmussen

#17
Hi Art.

Finding out in which parish Bodil Pedersdatter was born will likely also be the place where Lars Hansen og Bodil Pedersdatter were married.

Possible Birthe Pedersdatter:

Census 1787: Præstø, Tybjerg, Herlufmagle, Herluflille Bye, En gaard, 87, FT-1787, C0005
Navn:    Alder:    Status:    Stilling i familien:    Erhverv:    Fødested:
Hans Jensen     54     Gift     Mand     Gmd      
Kirsten Sørensdatter     55     Gift     Kone           
Søren Hansen     23     Ugift     Deres barn           
Jens Hansen     14     Ugift     Deres barn           
Birthe Pedersdatter     15     Ugift     Tjenestepige  [age born ca. 1772 fits with the 1801 census].
Kilde: Dansk Demografisk Database.

No Birthe Pedersdatter of the correct age is confirmed in Herlufmagle Sogn, so likely she moved to Herlufmagle as a servant girl after her confirmation.

mvh
Niels

Niels Just Rasmussen

Census 1850: Præstø, Hammer, Rønnebæk, Sipperup Bye, 62 en Gaard, 62, FT-1850, C9309
Navn:    Alder:    Status:    Stilling i familien:    Erhverv:    Fødested:
Peder Frederiksen     41     Gift          Gmd, Huusfd [Gårdmand, Husfader]     Herlufmagle, P. A. 
Ane Marie Olesdatter     31     Gift          Hans Kone     Carlstrup, H.A. 
Ane Marie Jørgensdatter     9     -          Deres Børn     Weiløe, P.A. [Vejlø] 
Hendrik Jørgensen     11     -          Deres Børn     Her i Sognet [Rønnebæk Sogn] 
Jørgen Jørgensen     3     -          Deres Børn     Do [Her i Sognet [Rønnebæk Sogn]] 
Frederik Pedersen     1     -          Deres Børn     Do [Her i Sognet [Rønnebæk Sogn]] 
Ane Kirstine Hansdatter     19     Ugift          Tjenestefolk     Do [Her i Sognet [Rønnebæk Sogn]] 
Jacob Nielsen     49     Ugift          Tjenestefolk     Tybjerg, P.A. 
Kilde: Dansk Demografisk Database.


Lægdsrulle 1822: Herlufmagle Sogn = Lægd 44.
Gammel nummer 145. Nyt nummer 115.
Navn: Peder.
Fader: Frederik Hansen.
Født: Herluflille.
Flytning 42-L-143 [Flytning til Tyvelse Sogn i 1825]
Kilde (s. 176): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=16481031#17423,778430

Lægdsrulle 1825: Tyvelse Sogn = Lægd 42.
L143. Nyt nummer 115. Peder.
Flytning 41-C-322 [Flytning til Glumsø Sogn i 1828].
Kilde (s. 165): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=16481031#17424,778803

Lægdsrulle 1828: Glumsø Sogn = Lægd 41.
C322: Peder. Nyt løbenummer 234.
Navn: Peder.
Fader: Frederik Hansen.
Født: Herluflille.
Alder: 17 Aar.
Højde: 60 1/2 tommer.
Opholdssted: Glumsøe.
Kom fra 42-115.
+ some text.....
Kilde (s. 200): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=16481031#17426,779672

Lægdsrulle 1831: Glumsø. Lægd 41.
Gammel nummer 234. Nyt nummer 195.
Navn: Peder.
Fader: Frederik Hansen.
Fødested: Herluflille.
Alder: 20 Aar.
Højde: 61 1/2 tommer.
Opholdssted: Sorøe [!!]
[Potentially a lot of important text here].
"Tjenlig Trainkudsk."
"husmand Jens Andersen i Aasøe" is mentioned.
also written something about "undersøges ved forhør" -> accused of something?
Kilde (s. 174): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=16481031#17439,784326

Lægdsrulle 1834: Herlufmagle. Lægd 41.
Peder.
Opholdssted: Glumsøe.
Flytning 40-K-303. [Flytning til Skelby Sogn (at Næstved) i 1835]
1832: ?...?-kudsk. Train Kudsk.
Kilde (s. 139): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=16481031#17449,788162

Niels Just Rasmussen

Lægdsrulle 1835. Tilgangsrulle. Skelby. Lægd 40.
Nr. 303. Peder.
Opholdssted: Skielbye.
Flytning til Sorøe ?65? -L-274. [Flytning til Karrebæk Sogn i 1836]
Afgk. m. 1836. [afgik militæret i 1836?]
Kilde (s. 75): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=16481031#17455,790950

Lægdsrulle 1836. Tilgangsrulle. Karrebæk. Lægd 65.
Gammelt nummer 274. Nyt nummer 196.
Peder.
Opholdssted: Karrebæk.
Kilde (s. 150): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=16481031#17459,792336

Lægsrulle 1839. Karrebæk = Lægd 65.
Gammel nummer 196. Nyt nummer 151.
Peder.
Opholdssted: Karrebæk.
Kilde (s. 119): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=16481031#17473,797114

Lægdsrulle 1842. Karrebæk = Lægd 65.
Gammel nummer 151. Nyt nummer 117.
Peder.
Opholdssted: Karrebæk.
Kilde (s. 124): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=16481031#17483,800586

Lægdsrulle 1844. Karrebæk = Lægd 65.
Peder.
Opholdssted: Karrebæk.
Flytning til Præstø 63-V-321 [Flytning til Rønnebæk Sogn i 1845].
Kilde (s. 425): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=16481031#17525,817676

Lægdsrulle 1845. Rønnebæk = Lægd 63.
Gammelt nummer 321. Nyt nummer 205 [udstreget].
Peder.
Opholdssted: Sipperup.
Slettet af rullen 1847.
Kilde (s. 40): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=16481031#17528,818759





Niels Just Rasmussen

Since he should be in Karrebæk Sogn in 1840, this must be him.

Census 1840: Sorø, Øster Flakkebjerg, Karrebæk Sogn, Karrebæk/ Præstegaarden, , 1, FT-1840, B5563
Jens August Brasen     38     Enke          Provst, Sognepræst      
Ole Frederik Christian Brasen     9     Ugift          hans Søn      
Caroline Marie Louise Brasen     5     Ugift          hans datter      
Christiane Emilie Franciska Olsen     30     Ugift          huusbestyrinde      
Carl Matthias Valdermar Jahn     26     Ugift          Præstens Ammunensis      
Maren Kirstine Schröder     19     Ugift          Barnepige      
Ane Juliane Peulike     23     Ugift          Stuepige      
Karen Cathrine Rasmusdatter     24     Ugift          Kokkepige      
Mette Christensdatter     18     Ugift          Bryggerpige      
Peder Frederiksen     30     Ugift          Avlskarl      
Henrik Rasmussen     21     Ugift          Tjenestekarl      
Christen Olsen     18     Ugift          Rygter 
Kilde: Dansk Demografisk Database.

Niels Just Rasmussen

#21
Census 1845: Præstø, Hammer, Rønnebæk, Rønnebek, et huus, 4, FT-1845, B5183
Peder Larsen     33     Gift          Skovfoged     her i sognet 
Kirsten Jensdatter     28     Gift          hans kone     Herlufmagle s. Præstø Amt 
Peder Frederiksen     36     Ugift          Daglaier     Mogenstrup s. Præstø Amt
Kilde: Dansk Demografisk Database.

This could be him, as there is no Peder Frederiksen born in Mogenstrup Sogn in that ca. 1809-1810 period.
It would fit his movement from Karrebæk Sogn to Rønnebæk Sogn in ca. 1845.

Tilgangsliste Rønnebæk Sogn. [These two entires could easily be the same guy]
11. November 1844: Peter Frederiksen. 34 Aar. Født ca. 1811.
14. April 1845: Peder Frederiksen. 34 Aar. Fra Jernbanen. (Moves to "Rønnebæks Holm" same date as Christen Mikkelsen).
Kilde (s. 4): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=21913159#429170,78546814

Afgangsliste Karrebæk Sogn.
8. November 1844: Peder Frederiksen, Fødested: Herluflille. 34 Aar. Til Rønnebæks Holm i Rønnebæk Sogn.
Kilde (s. 97, nr, 79 last entry): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=21883071#427995,78501487

So we have proved it is "our" Peder Frederiksen who moves 8. November 1844 from Karrebæk Sogn to Rønnebæk Sogn and who settles down in Rønnebæk 14. April 1845 at the latest.

Niels Just Rasmussen

#22
Godsarkiver amt, Præstø, Rønnebæksholm Gods,
Register til Rønnebæksholm Gods fæsteprotokol.
Peder Frederiksen. Sipperup. Gaard.
Ane Olsdatter, Jørgen Hansens Enke. [gaardmand Jørgen Hansen død 26. Juni 1846 i Sipperup, Rønnebæk Sogn]
Date: 10. Aril 1847.
Kilde (s. 5): http://ao.salldata.dk/vis1.php?bsid=211593&side=5
Anders Hansens fæste (s. 114): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=21025429#328274,66094002
&
Godsarkiver amt, Præstø, Rønnebæksholm Gods,
Register til Rønnebæksholm Gods fæsteprotokol.
Lars Pedersen. Sipperup. Hus.
Forhenværende gaardmand Peder Frederiksen.
Date: 4. Januar 1853.
Kilde (s. 16): http://ao.salldata.dk/vis1.php?bsid=211593&side=16
Fæsteprotokol (s. 106): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=21026157#329398,66260698

Census 1860: Præstø, Hammer, Rønnebæk, Rønnebæk Skoledistrikt, Sibberup, En Gaard, 68, FT-1860, D5894
Peder Frederiksen     50     Gift     Husfader. Jordbruger          Herlufmagle Sogn, Præstø Amt 
Ane Margrethe Rasmusdatter     39     Gift     Hans Kone          Olstrup Sogn, Præstø Amt  [New Wife as Ane Olesdatter died 10. December 1853 i Rønnebæk Sogn]
Hans Christian Jørgensen     17     Ugift     Deres Barn. tjener Forældrene          Vester Egesborg Sogn, Præstø Amt 
Hendrik Jørgensen     15     Ugift     Deres Barn          Rønnebæk Sogn, Præstø Amt 
Jørgen Jørgensen     13     Ugift     Deres Barn          Rønnebæk Sogn, Præstø Amt 
Frederik Pedersen     11     Ugift     Deres Barn          Rønnebæk Sogn, Præstø Amt 
Karen Sophie Pedersen     9     Ugift     Deres Barn          Rønnebæk Sogn, Præstø Amt 
Rasmus Pedersen     4     Ugift     Deres Barn          Rønnebæk Sogn, Præstø Amt 
Hans Larsen     46     Ugift     Tjenestekarl          Mogenstrup Sogn, Præstø Amt 
Maren Kirstine Christiansdatter  26     Ugift     Tjenestepige          Rønnebæk Sogn, Præstø Amt
Kilde: Dansk Demografisk Database.

Art Berggreen

Niels, thank you for all your effort!

I've got a pretty good picture of the family after the marriage to Ane Marie Olesdatter.  My line comes down from Jørgen Hansen and Ane Marie Olesdatter through one of their children Jørgen Jørgensen who emigrated to the USA in 1869.  We are in contact with descendants of Peder Frederiksen and his second wife Ane Margrethe Rasmusdatter.  The farm Sipperup Østergaard is still owned and operated by one of those descendants.  We actually visited some of the family at the farm in 2011.

Art

Niels Just Rasmussen

#24
Hi Art.

So now you have the movements of Peder Frederiksen.

Herluflille in Herlufmagle Sogn 1810-1825.
Tyvelse in Tyvelse Sogn 1825-1828.
Glumsø in Glumsø Sogn 1828-1835. [Though might be in Sorø (town?) from 5. Juli 1830 and Jens Andersen in Aasø is mentioned, as the Lægdsrulle from 1831 states]
[Train Kudsk (= from french "train" -> Logistic, so at this time likely carriage driver moving supplies, ammunition or guns) in 1832 - not clear in what regiment.]
Skelby in Skelby Sogn 1835- 1836.
Karrebæk in Karrebæk Sogn 1836-1844.
Rønnebæksholm in Rønnebæk Sogn 1844/1845-1847 + Sipperup in Rønnebæk Sogn from 1847-
Takes over a "gårdmands-fæste" in Sipperup 10. April 1847 by marrying the widow of Jørgen Hansen = Ane Marie Oldsdatter.

Cheers
Niels

PS: Census 1845 while Jørgen Hansen was still alive.
Præstø, Hammer, Rønnebæk, Sipperup Bye, en Gaard, 63, FT-1845, B5183
Navn:    Alder:    Status:    Stilling i familien:    Erhverv:    Fødested:
Jørgen Hansen     37     Gift          Gaardmand     Gjordsløv s. Præstø A. 
Ane Marie Olesdatter     26     Gift          hans kone     Carlstrup s. Kjøbenh. A. 
Ane Marie Jørgendatter     4     -          deres børn     Weilø s. Præstø A. 
Hans Jørgensen     2     -          deres børn     Weilø s. Præstø A. 
Peder Mikkelsen     31     Ugift          Tjenestefolk     her i sognet 
Rasmus Jensen     22     -          Tjenestefolk     Wester Egitsborg s. Præstø A. 
Sidse Marie Christensdatter     21     -          Tjenestefolk     Sengeløse s. Kjøbenhavns A 
Maren Kirstine Jensdatter     16     -          Tjenestefolk     Herlufsholms s. Præstø A. 
Kilde: Dansk Demografisk Database.


Art Berggreen

In an ongoing effort to find the birthplace of Birthe Pedersdatter and her first marriage to Lars Hansen, I may have a possibility.

I could only find two marriages of a Lars Hansen and a Birthe Pedersdatter in the correct time frame.  One was in Garnisons parish in Copenhagen and the other was very close to Herlufmagle parish in the Bråby parish in Sorø Amt.
Given the proximity of the second possibility, that seems the best choice and the marriage date 13 Oct 1799 would line up better with the birth of daughter Marthe Sophie Larsdatter abt. 1801.
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?bsid=148629#148629,24562240

Given that the bride's first marriage was often in her home parish, I looked for a birth record in Bråby parish and found a possible match Birdte Pedersdatter baptised 19 p. Trinitatis (6 October ) 1771.
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?bsid=148629#148629,24562171

Any opinions?

Art

Niels Just Rasmussen

Hi Art.

Very good find.....

I'm convinced with 99% certainty that it's Bråby where Birthe Pedersdatter was born in 1771 to "Peder Hansen and  Magrethe Rasmusdatter"
Link (page 40): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?bsid=148629#148629,24562171
since the marriage takes place in Bråby between a "ungkarl Lars Hansen from Hammer Sogn" and "Birthe Pedersdatter af Braabye"!

As it was custom to get married in the Bride's parish this ticks all the correct boxes. They likely move to Hammer Parish right after the wedding where Marthe Sophie is born. [Unless you can find an older child, who didn't survive who was born in Bråby or in Hammer Parish]

Baptised 30. November 1801 in Hammer Sogn.
"Huusmand Lars Hansen i Riselodder [= Riselod (Huse) today] med datter": Marthe Sophie [Larsdatter].
Kilde (s. 86): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17115617#150776,25006346

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Other children of Peder Hansen & Magrethe Rasmusdatter.
Døbt 1775: Hans Pedersen (page 42). Here father Peder Hansen is "Huusmand".
Begravet 1776: Hans Pedersen, huusmand Peder Hansens søn i Braabye (page 121).
-------------------------------------------

NB: Unclear if same Peder Hansen.
Døbt 1782: Maren, fader Peder Hansen huusmand af Braabye.
Begravet 1787: huusmand Peder Hansens datter i Braabye = Marie, 3 Aar.

Døbt: 1785: Hans, fader Peder Hansen, huusmand i Braabye.
Døbt 1785: Marie, fader Peder Hansen, gaardmand (no place given) -> most likely not "our man"

So not able to find a Peder Hansen & Margrethe Rasmusdatter i Bråby in the census 1787.
Doesn't seemed to have died in Bråby [checked 1775-1787], so they probably moved.

Cheers
Niels

Art Berggreen

Niels, thank you for the confirmation.  It looks like Birdte is a very rarely spelled version of the name.  It may have just been the priest's way of spelling it.  What little I know of spoken Danish, I think Birdte and Birthe would be pronounced much the same?

Art

Niels Just Rasmussen

#28
Hi Art.

Yeah the priests often wrote how they thought it would be closest to how people pronounced it, so Birdte instead of Birte/Birthe (pronounced the same) probably to indicate a more -d- sound than a -t-. Actually in fast speech I would pronounce it more with a -d- sound, and if really wanted to shout/scold someone I might use a -t- sound?!
Modern Danish pronounciation: https://forvo.com/word/birthe/#da 

Actually in 10. Fearuary 1788 in Braaby (Bråby) we have a burial:
Huusmand gl [= gamle] Peder Hansen i Braaby. 79 Aar gammel.
Kilde (s. 123): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?bsid=148629#148629,24562254
&
Census 1787: Sorø, Ringsted, Braaby, Braabye, Braabye, , FT-1787, C0018
Peder Hansen (Gl.)    74     Gift     Mand     Bonde og Huusmand      
Margrete Larsdatter     53     Gift     hans Kone 
Kilde: Dansk Demografisk Database.
NB: Ages of people at this time very wildly - this is clearly the guy dying in 1788 as he is also is mentioned as "gl".

So we know that there was supposed to be 2 husmand Peder Hansen in Bråby at that time! Gamle (= old) to distinguish from a younger one.

The young ("unge") one is not "our guy" either: He is way to young for being a father in 1771.

Census 1787: Sorø, Ringsted, Braaby, Braabye, Braabye, , FT-1787, C0018
Peder Hansen (Unge)     28     Gift     Mand     Bonde og Huusmand      
Karen Larsdatter     27     Gift     hans Kone 
Kilde: Dansk Demografisk Database.

Peder Hansen father of Birthe Pedersdatter must have moved away from the parish!    

I can't find a Peder Hansen in Oeders Efterretninger 1771 for Bråby Sogn.
So perhaps he was still single or not living in the parish, when Oeder made his lists for married men in the eastern part of Denmark.   

There is a third "husmand Peder Hansen" in Braaby:

Census 1787: Sorø, Ringsted, Braaby, Braabye, Braabye, , FT-1787, C0018
Peder Hansen Rod     42     Gift     Mand     Bonde og Huusmand      
Karen Larsdatter     28     Gift     hans Kone           
Maren Pedersdatter     4     Ugift     deres Barn           
Hans Pedersen     3     Ugift     deres Barn 
Kilde: Dansk Demografisk Database.
NB: He has to age to potentially be the father and to have remarried!
&
They got married in 1781 in Bråby and he is stated as "ungkarl", so he has NOT been married before - thus not "our guy".
Kilde (s. 104, bottom right): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?bsid=148629#148629,24562235
EDIT: Actually that marriage could also be Peder Hansen (the young one) whose wife is also a Karen Larsdatter......