Support for my reasoning - family relationships

[Ric Rasmussen]

Sorry this is a long post.  I need opinions on whether you think I am making the correct conclusions and/or if there would be places I could find additional data.

Niels Christopher Mortensen (1784-1828) was born in Hårbølle.
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/en/billedviser?bsid=149307#149307,24690534
(bottom left)

Niels Christopher Mortensen and Maria Pedersdatter have four daughters all born in Hårbølle.

Marie Kirstine Nielsdatter 1817
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-994W-KS4F?i=118&cc=2078555&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AQG8Q-YGK8
Johanne Kirstine 1819
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-994W-K9BW?i=130&cc=2078555&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AQG87-CR65
Marie Kirstine 1823
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-894W-K9FB?i=169&cc=2078555&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AQG87-VH31
Sidse Kirstine 1828
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-994W-53V?i=141&cc=2078555&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AQG87-379Y

I cannot find a marriage record for Niels Christopher and Maria in the Fanefjord Parish.  There is a marriage record for Niels Christopher Mortensen and Maria Pedersdatter in Damsholte Parish in 1817 - the same year the first daughter was born.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-994W-X7N8?i=202&cc=2078555&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AQG8Q-3C15

It says Niels is from Lind and Maria is from Hielm.  Since Niels is 33 at the time is it reasonable to believe that he was living/working in Lind at that time but since he was from Hårbølle, they settle there and have their children there?

Niels dies in 1828.  The census record of 1834 shows Christian Mortensen and Inger Pedersdatter with four children.  The record indicates they are their children.
Johanna Nielsdatter
Maria Nielsdatter
Sidse Nielsdatter
Niels Christiansen
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C95N-TS7C-F?i=2129&cc=2771431

The ages and names of the first three children match the children of Niels Christopher and Maria.

The 1840 Census shows Christian Mortensen and Inger Maria Pedersdatter along with Sidse and Niels.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS21-5QCW?i=103&cc=2778651&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AQG65-M2K4

Interestingly, Christian is Niels Christopher's younger brother.  It seems based on the above information that Maria Pedersdatter and Inger Maria Pedersdatter are the same person.

I find a birth record for a Maria Pedersdatter in Hielm in 1792.
https://www.familysearch.org/records/images/image-details?page=1&place=3049974&rmsId=TH-1961-33494-3856-35&imageIndex=69&singleView=true

So if this is her, why does she add the name Inger after getting married the second time?  It doesn't show up on her birth record nor on any of the births of her first four children.

There is an Inger Marie born in Damsholte Parish (though not in Hielm) in 1793.  Her mother is not married and I can't tell whether the father is Møller or Peder.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-994W-N9W6?i=33&cc=2078555

Thank you for reading through all of that.  I have three questions.
1.  Does the marriage record of Niels Christopher Mortensen from Lind and Maria Pedersdatter from Hielm correspond to this couple?
2.  Are Maria Pedersdatter and Inger Maria Pedersdatter the same person?  Why would she change her name?  Was that common or at least heard of with a second marriage?
3.  Or is the Inger Marie birth record the correct one (not Maria) and she just went by Maria at her first marriage and with her first 4 children and then included the first name when she married the second time?

I look forward to your opinions on this.

Thank you,

Ric

[Britta Hansen]

There is an Inger Marie born in Damsholte Parish (though not in Hielm) in 1793.  Her mother is not married and I can't tell whether the father is Møller or Peder.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-994W-N9W6?i=33&cc=2078555

The putative father is 'en Møller Svend i Kiøbenhavn[København] ved Navn Peder Christiansen'

[Britta Hansen]

Inger Marie Pedersdatter died on 22 January 1867 Fanefjord
Probate records
Møns Herred Navneregister
Protocol - left
  CH   Niels Peder Christiansen (deceased) - two CH Jens Albreth and Anne Marie
         Johanne Nielsen 47 Aar
         Sidse Kirstine married to husmand Niels Peder Jensen

[Britta Hansen]

Interestingly, Christian is Niels Christopher's younger brother.

Hm .......... nothing indicates this and marrying a brother-in-law would require permission.
The Militaty Levying Rolls might confirm their familyrelations.

... and find probate records on a Morten or two ... in Haarbølle, Fanefjord and spouse Maren Hansdatter to verify the children.

[Britta Hansen]

Probate records Møns Herred
30. December 1829 Niels Mortensen
     WIFE: Marie Pedersdatter
     CH      Johanne Kirstine 9
               Marie Kirstine 5
               Sidse Kirstine 1

Marie Pedersdatter = Inger Marie Pedersdatter

[Britta Hansen]

I checked the marriage record January 8, 1830 Fanefjord in Hovedministerialbog:
Christian Mortensen og Niels Mortensens Enke Inger Marie Pedersdatter
... efter Kongebrev af .... (looks like) afdøde Mands Broder?
This indicates that there was an approval of the marriage because the groom was the brother of her late husband?
Ask someone to read the record in details.

In several cases a Kongebrev was required/necessary:
Kongebrev in Danish
..
Hvis man ville gifte sig ind i svogerskab, dvs. med afdød ægtefælles familiemedlem
........

[Ric Rasmussen]

Britta,

Thank you for so much information!  I am working through it all.  I will start out by asking if someone can help transcribe this record so I can figure out the details of her Kongebrev.

Entry 17
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?bsid=203515#203515,38598363

Thanks,

Ric

[Ole Westermann]

I think it says:

den 8 Janu 1830 ibid
efter Kongebrev af Dato
da han var den afdøde Mds*       *Mands
Broder
  ------- direct translation
the 8 of Janu 1830 ibid
after Royal permission of date
as he was the late man's
brother

mvh Ole

[Ric Rasmussen]

Thank you, Ole.

[Ric Rasmussen]

I have not used probates for research because I can't read them.  I spent some time the last couple of days learning about them and what should be included.  Could someone please transcribe and translate this probate record for me so I can see some of the key words, etc that will help me work through these kinds of records?

This is the probate of Niels Mortensen that Britta found.

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?bsid=132897#132897,33336527

Thanks,

Ric

[Ric Rasmussen]

Could I please get some help with transcribing and translating the first paragraph of this probate?  It starts just over half-way down on the right had side.

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?bsid=132897#132897,33336527

Thanks,

Ric

[Ole Westermann]

Hi Ric

                  Skifte Samling
   i Stervboet efter Huusmand Niels Mortensen af Haarbølle. -
Aar 1829 den 30 December blev dette Skifte foretaget af Skifteforvalteren Justits-
raad Meincke i Overværelse af Vidnerne Sognefoged Isach Hemmingsen af Askebye
og Gaardmand Jeppe Jacobsen af Wollerup. - Ved Skiftet mødte den Afdødes
Enke Marie Peders Datter - samt Skomager Peder Andersen af Wollerup
som Formynder for den Afdødes umyndige Arvinger
                Datteren Johanne Kierstine 9 Aar gl
                     -      Marie Kierstine     5 Aar
                     -      Sidse Kierstine     1 Aar gl
   ---------- translation:
                 'Meeting of heirs'
   in the estate after smallholder Niels Mortensen of Haarbølle. -
Year 1829 December 30 this probate was performed by the probate officer Councellor
Meincke in presence of the witnesses 'parish exec. officer' Isach Hemmingsen of Askebye
and farmer Jeppe Jacobsen of Wollerup. - At the probate the deceased mans
widow Marie Pederdatter met - and shoemaker Peder Andersen of Wollerop
as guardian for the under aged heirs of the deceased
                 The daugther  Johanne Kierstine 9 years old
                       -              Marie Kierstine     5 year
                       -              Sidse Kierstine     1 year old
Summary of the rest:
Income  - - - 40 rigsdaler 1 mark
Expencies - - 23     -       1    - 10 skilling
for the heirs - 16    -       5    -  6     -
one ½ for the widow - one ½ for the daughters

mvh Ole

[Ric Rasmussen]

Thank you so much, Ole.  That is very helpful!

[Ric Rasmussen]

Could I get some help with transcribing the marriage record of Niels Christopher and Maria.  It is the first one under 1817.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-994W-X7N8?i=202&cc=2078555&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AQG8Q-3C15

Particularly, what is the word after Ungkarl and before Lind under Niels and what is the word after 24 Aar and before Hielm under Maria.  And finally what does it say under witnesses?

I am trying to find out more information to ultimately find a birth record for Maria.

Thanks,

Ric

[Ole Westermann]

Niels Christopher Mortensen
33 Aar Ungkarl tienend i Lind (bachelor serving in Lind)

Marie Peders Datter 24 Aar
Tjenestepige (maid) i Hielm

Gmd (Gaardmand - farmer) Rasmus Larsen i Hielm
Lars Smed (smith/blacksmith) i Hielm(,)  Lys-
ning forlangt (asked for banns) 19de October

mvh Ole

[Ric Rasmussen]

Thank you again, Ole.  That information is very helpful.

[Ric Rasmussen]

At the probate the deceased mans
widow Marie Pederdatter met - and shoemaker Peder Andersen of Wollerop
as guardian for the under aged heirs of the deceased

In trying to understand Danish laws of guardianship, it would seem that Peder Andersen should be a relative.  Could he be the mother's (Marie Pedersdatter) father?  The patronymics would work.  Wollerop (Vollerup) is in the Fanefjord Parish so I looked for a birth record.  I could not find a birth record for Marie Pedersdatter in 1792-1794.

If Peder Andersen isn't her father, then if I understand correctly, the children should have gone to the father's brother.  He had two.  The younger brother eventually married Marie so it seems he would have been capable.

Is there something I am missing in the laws that would better explain this?  Any other thoughts?

Thanks,

Ric

[Ole Westermann]

I am rather sure that Marie Pedersdatter is the same as Inger Marie, born Nov.22,1793 as illegitimate
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-994W-N9W6?i=31&cc=2078555
Dom.1 Adv. d 1ste Dec blev Daaben confirmeret paa Niels
Lykes Datter Marie Christine i Fuglesang hendes uægte Barn,
føed d. 22de Nov., som var hiemmed. af Jordmoderen og kaldet
INGER MARIE, baaren af Jens Madsens Datter Karen
fra Frenderup, hos hende gik Niels Lykes Datter Mette Marie
af Fuglesang. Faddere: Ladefogden Christen Andersen fra
Marienborg, Niels Jochumsen og Lars Madsen fra Frenderup.
Anmældt til Barnefader en Møller Svend i Kiøbenhavn
ved Navn Peder Christiansen.

- so her parents were Peder Christiansen, journeyman miller in København, and Marie Christine Nielsdatter (MCN).
- Baptism of MCN  https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QSQ-G94W-L71L?i=23&wc=M5KC-DPR%3A357517501%2C357801401%2C357868501%2C357869501&cc=2078555 last one in 1771
eod.d. (Dec.26) døbt Niels Jensen Lykke og H. Ingeborg Sørensdaatter
i Fuglesang deres Daatter, kaldet MARIE CHRISTINE.
- I call her IMP
   ---------------
MCN's family
Præstø, Mønbo, Damsholte, Marienborg, , 5, FT-1787, B2413
Niels Jensen Lykke     67     Gift     Mand     Skovfoged      
Ingeborg Sørensdatter     47     Gift     Kone           
Johanne Maria Nielsdatter     13          Deres Datter           
Mette Mari. Nielsdatter     10          Deres Datter           
Jens Christian Nielsen     6          Søn 
  ---------------
Confirmation of IMP 1808  https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?bsid=148888#148888,24608603 right p. left column near bottom
9. Inderst (cottager) Niels Bulches Pige (maid) ibid. Inger Marie Pedersd. - 14 -
  ---------------
Then she (age 24) gets married Jan.24, 1817 in Damsholte to Niels Christopher Mortensen (NCM) (age 33)
NCM dies ultimo 1829 leaving behind IMP and their 3 daugters.
She then gets married to NCM's brother Christian Mortensen Jan.8.1830 in Fanefjord.

mvh Ole

[Ric Rasmussen]

Thank you, Ole!  That is so very, very helpful.  I really appreciate the time to help me with that.  That makes a lot of sense.

Should I expect some relationship with Peder Andersen since he is named as the guardian of the children or would someone else be able to fill that role since the mother was illegitimate and wouldn't have a father's family to fill that role?  I recently read something on how the guardianship in probates work and just wondering if in this situation they didn't follow it?  Or in other words was it common not to follow that?

Thanks,

Ric

[Ole Westermann]

As guardian a relative was preferred, if it was possible.
And then his relation to the children most often was mentioned.
I don't think that the shoemaker Peder Andersen was a relative.

mvh Ole

[Ric Rasmussen]

Ole, thanks once again.  I appreciate your knowledge and expertise.  It is so helpful.

Ric