Locating probate records

[Kerry Larson]

I have started looking for probate records in my research and am having difficulty.  The court names are different than the sogn/herred.  For example, if I want to look for a probate record for a person that lived in Mern, Bårse, Præstø, what myndighed or court would cover that area?  How would I know without being very familiar with local geography?  Is there a gazetteer or something similar that show which godsskifter covers which parish?  In the records repositories, I just see a long list of unfamiliar names and don't know which to look in.  Thanks for any guidance.

[Britta Hansen]

An overview in 'wiki.dis-danmark' of the Mern Parish - in Danish only - displays the estates in the parish. The estates would handle the probate process - and other court procedures - (until 1849 I believe)

Godser med fæstegods i sognet
-    Høvdingsgaard
-    Oremandsgård
+ Lilliendal Estate [not mentioned in the overview]

If the probates are not handled by the estates, you should look into these jurisdictions:
LAK Retsbetjente
Mern
            - 1718   Bårse herred, Jungsh.birk
- 1718 - 1720 Hammer-Bårse-Jungsh.birk
- 1720 - 1809 Vordingborg rytterdistrikts birk
- 1809 - 1919 Vordingborg nordre birk

[Lis B. Jensen]

Hi Kerry

You can atke a look here http://www.aneopslag.dk/ click at Alle Registredee personer and choose letter for the surname of Your person - then look through the list.
Lars Who owns thw sitw has many people form Mern.

You can also give ud a name and deathdater in this thread - so will I see if I ca help You

[Kerry Larson]

Thank you Britta and Lis for your help.  So wiki.dis-danmark is the best/only site to find the estate(s) that cover each parish?

The particular person I'm seeking information on is Kirsten Jensdatter (https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Jensdatter-1529) who was born on 15 Mar 1810 in Mern.  Her parents were Jens Nielsen and Bodil Hansdatter.
* https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QG8L-NZWQ
* https://www.danishfamilysearch.com/cid7664292
* https://www.danishfamilysearch.com/cid14669316

Mern church records aren't available before 1814.  I've identified one couple named Jens Nielsen and Bodil Hansdatter in Mern.  The big problem is that they have a daughter also named Kirsten who was born in 1816.
* http://ao.salldata.dk/vis1.php?side=83&bsid=150777
* https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QG8C-MC78
* https://www.danishfamilysearch.com/cid3141016
* https://www.danishfamilysearch.com/cid5253748

Because they have a daughter named Kerstin, I've ruled them out as the parents of my Kerstin Jensdatter, but they're the only lead I had. 

[Lis B. Jensen]

HI Kerry

The Confirmation for Kirsten in Hammer says she is born in Hammer Parish.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QG8L-NZWQ

In the Census 1834,1840,1845,1850,1860 her name is Kirstine Jensdatter in Rønnebæk Married in Hammer 9th February 1838:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-894W-5QRB?i=255&cc=2078555&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AQG82-5QWN


I think this is a mix of two families

[Britta Hansen]

The Confirmation for Kirsten in Hammer says she is born in Hammer Parish.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QG8L-NZWQ

No, the confirmation record displays that she was baptised in Allerslev 18. March 1810.

The parents' marriage was recorded in the church book of Allerslev, Bårse, Præstø:
Jens Nielsen in Rekkende[Allerslev Parish] and Bodil Hansdatter in the Allerslev vicarage were engaged on 11.3.1809 and married on 7.7.1809 in Jungshoved Church  left hand side.

The younger Kirsten Jensdatter had a boy Niels Pedersen *17.8.1847 Hammer, Hammer, Præstø. Please notice that 'Lars Rasmussen af Rønnebæk' was one of the witnesses. 
Præstø, Hammer, Hammer, Hammer By, 43 En Gaard, 43, FT-1850, C9305
Navn:    Alder:    Status:    Stilling i familien:    Erhverv:    Fødested:
Jens Nielsen     68     Gift          Gaardmand og Huusfader     Allersløv Sogn, Præstø Amt 
Bodil Hansdatter     64     Gift          Hans Kone     Jungshoved Sogn, Præstø Amt 
Kirsten Jensdatter     32     Ugift          deres Børn     Her i Sognet 
Niels Pedersen     3     -          Hendes Søn [Kirsten Jensdatter]     Do [Her i Sognet] 
Hans Jensen     39     Ugift          deres Børn     Do [Her i Sognet] 
Ane Jensdatter     31     Ugift          deres Børn     Do [Her i Sognet] 
Anders Jensen     27     Ugift          deres Børn, indkaldt til Krigstjenesten     Do [Her i Sognet] 
Peder Hansen     23     Ugift          deres Tjenestekarl, indkaldt til Krigstjenesten     Do [Her i Sognet] 

To obtain the final proof of the family relations, you should find probate records of the parents Jens Nielsen and Bodil Hansdatter, if possible.

[Kerry Larson]

Wow. That is EXTREMELY helpful.

I'm confident that the Kirstine Jensdatter who was married to Lars Rasmussen was born in Mar 1810 based on records from Iowa, USA (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-6274-MKV?cc=1325221&wc=9B7Z-DPL%3A1030552001%2C1034894801%2C1034898701 "Christina Rasmussen", https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/117404532).  Her Denmark census records that have a birth place all say Mern.

Now that you've pointed out that she was baptized in Allerslev and her parents were married there eight months prior to her birth, the pieces are all falling into place.

Thank you!

[Britta Hansen]

Karen Larsdatter *21.5.1847 to Lars Rasmussen and Kirstine Jensdatter in Rønnebæk, Hammer, Præstø: among the witnesses was Pige Kirsten Jensdatter af Lou [Lov in Hammer Parish - a small village close to Riselod where the parents lived.
The brother Hans Jensen *20.2.1812 - father Gmd. Jens Nielsen Riiselodden i Hammer - left baptism no 2 from the bottom

[Kerry Larson]

I have found the birth records for most of Lars Rasmussen's and Kirstine Jensdatter's children; the links are posted on Lars Rasmussen's Wikitree profile,  https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Rasmussen-2383, although I have to rely on the transcription for the details.

Does the marriage record of her parents that you found, https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?bsid=147936#147936,24425943, say where Bodil Hansdatter was from?

I can make out that Jens Nielsen was from Rekkende.  I believe this is his 1801 census record, https://www.danishfamilysearch.com/cid1120282, although Danish Family Search has him attached to the wrong family.  His father, Niels Andersen, has the suffix Dyr?, on the census record, https://www.danishfamilysearch.com/cid1120280.  What does Dyr signify?

Edit:  Also, is Riiselodden a location or an additional surname?

[Britta Hansen]

Riselod is a location, where the parents lived.

Bodil Hansdatter was serving at the Allerslev vicarage situated in Rekkende :-) - the place of birth not mentioned. I'll have a look into Jungshoved Parish church books.

Added: might be this girl Bodil/Boel
Præstø, Baarse, Jungshoved, Staurebye,Joenshoveds sogn, Huusfolk, 11, FT-1787, B0013
Navn:    Alder:    Status:    Stilling i familien:    Erhverv:    Fødested:
Hans Rasmussen     28     Gift     Husbonde     Huusmand og Bonde - Skomager      
Kirsten Rasmusdatter     26     Gift     madmoder           
Boel Hansdatter     2     Ugift     datter          

[Britta Hansen]

Confirmation in Jungshoved, Bårse, Præstø 1798:
Boel Hansdatter - Hans Rasmussens Datter af Stavreby - døbt 5. marts 1786
Her baptism in 1786 - 4. column no 2.

Præstø, Baarse, Allerslev, Rechende Bye, husmand, 9.fam., FT-1801, B2136
Navn:    Alder:    Status:    Stilling i familien:    Erhverv:    Fødested:
Niels Andersen Dyr     51     Gift     mand     husmand med jord og hugger      
Maren Anders Datter     50     Gift     hans kone           
Jens Nielsen   19   Ugift   Deres søn      

What does Dyr signify?

an interesting question 

[Kerry Larson]

This brick wall isn't just coming down.  It's being obliterated.  I can't thank you enough Britta.

I don't see a baptism record from 1518 Mar 1810 for Kirstine Jensdatter in Allerslev, do you?  https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?bsid=147936#147936,24425855

[Kerry Larson]

These people are too intertwined.  The other Kerstin Jensdatter, born in Hammer, was still living with her parents in the 1850 census. Father Jens Nielsen was born in 1782 in Allerslev.  Mother Bodil Hansdatter was born in 1786 in Jungshoved!

Jens Nielsen:  https://www.danishfamilysearch.com/cid7691292
Bodil Hansdatter:  https://www.danishfamilysearch.com/cid7691293

The census does say that Kerstin is their daughter, doesn't it?

[Kerry Larson]

I guess I need to ask the question, they wouldn't have daughters named Kirstine and Kerstin would they?

[Britta Hansen]

I don't see a baptism record from 1518 Mar 1810 for Kirstine Jensdatter in Allerslev, do you? 

No

The census does say that Kerstin is their daughter, doesn't it?

Yes, that's right:
Præstø, Hammer, Hammer, Hammer By, en Gaard, 36, FT-1845, B4793
Navn:              Alder:    Status:    Stilling i familien:    Erhverv:    Fødested:
Jens Nielsen             63     Gift          Gaardmand     Alsløv s. P.A. 
Bodil Hansdatter     59     Gift          hans kone     Junhde!! s. P.A. 
Hans Jensen          33     Ugift          deres børn     her i sognet 
Kirsten Jensdatter     29     Ugift          deres børn*     her i sognet  their children
Ane Jensen             27     Ugift          deres børn     her i sognet 
Peder Hansen             18     Ugift          Tjenestedreng     her i sognet 

Præstø, Hammer, Hammer, Hammer By, 43 En Gaard, 43, FT-1850, C9305
Navn:            Alder:    Status:    Stilling i familien:    Erhverv:    Fødested:
Jens Nielsen             68     Gift          Gaardmand og Huusfader     Allersløv Sogn, Præstø Amt 
Bodil Hansdatter     64     Gift          Hans Kone     Jungshoved Sogn, Præstø Amt 
Kirsten Jensdatter     32     Ugift          deres Børn    Her i Sognet 
Niels Pedersen              3     -          Hendes Søn [Kirsten Jensdatter]     Do [Her i Sognet] 
Hans Jensen             39     Ugift          deres Børn     Do [Her i Sognet] 
Ane Jensdatter       31     Ugift          deres Børn     Do [Her i Sognet] 
Anders Jensen             27     Ugift          deres Børn, indkaldt til Krigstjenesten     Do [Her i Sognet] 
Peder Hansen             23     Ugift          deres Tjenestekarl, indkaldt til Krigstjenesten     Do [Her i Sognet] 

[Britta Hansen]

I guess I need to ask the question, they wouldn't have daughters named Kirstine and Kerstin would they?

Kirstine and Kirsten, it's possible. On the background of records found, I will not reject this possibility.

[Lis B. Jensen]

Hej
Nu Kiggede jeg på konfirmation igen og - må indrømme jeg fik kigget på en forkert post. Hun er angiveligt øfdt i Allerslev.

[Britta Hansen]

Hun er angiveligt øfdt i Allerslev.

The church book entry says that she was baptised in Allerslev

[Kerry Larson]

Sorry I keep getting the spelling wrong; it's obviously important in this case.  Kirstine and Kirsten aren't just spelling variants of the same name?  I thought the only time a name would be repeated was if a child died.

[Britta Hansen]

Some times Kirstine and Kirsten might be spelling variants of the same name 

In this case I believe that there were two daughters: one Kirstine and one Kirsten - records found indicates that this was a possibility.

[Kerry Larson]

Big problem.  In confirmation record, the older one born in 1810 is spelled Kirsten:  https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L94W-57HN?i=197&cc=2078555

[Kerry Larson]

Additional record from 1817 for Kirsten Jensdatter, daughter of Jens Nielsen in Hammer in 1817 (#9):  https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L94W-2FB9?i=119&cc=2078555.  Is this the vaccinerede?  If so, should all the children of the parish be listed?  The older Kirstine/Kirsten Jensdatter would have been ~ age 7.

[Kerry Larson]

Two versions of marriage record:
* https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-894W-5QRB?i=257&cc=2078555
* https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/en/billedviser?bsid=203999#203999,38695906

In the second, what is the description following Jens Nielsen's name in the 3rd and 4th columns?  Is there anything useful in the last column?

[Kerry Larson]

It appears that Bodil Hansdatter died in Dec 1853 and Jens Nielsen died in Oct 1857 in Hammer sogn.
* http://ao.salldata.dk/vis1.php?side=344&bsid=150778
* http://ao.salldata.dk/vis1.php?bsid=150778&side=321

Is there any other identifying information in those records?

[Britta Hansen]

In the second, what is the description following Jens Nielsen's name in the 3rd and 4th columns?  Is there anything useful in the last column?

On the marriage record 1838: Pigen Kirstine Jensdatter 27½ Aar gl. af Hammer Risegaard
[the farm Jens Nielsen owned] Witness: Gaardmand Jens Nielsen af Hammer Risegaard

Is there any other identifying information in those records?

Burial records of Bodil and Hans: she was the wife of Gmd. Jens Nielsen [Gmd Jens Nielsen Hustru i Risegaarden]. He was Aftægtsgaardmand in Risegaarden.

[Britta Hansen]

The court record on the farm:
Matr.nr. 19a Hammer By, Hammer = Risegård [Risegaard] which Jens Nielsen bought in June 1811.

[Lars Skovvang Larsen]

Hello Kerry and helpers.

I have spend some hours in your relatives company this afternoon and evening.

Kirsten or Kirstine Jensdatter - we will never find out the exact spelling of her name:
Born in 1810 and baptised (not born) on the 18th (not on the 15th) of marts 1810 was most probably born in Mern Parish (possibly in Nørre Mern). She is neither born in Allerslev nor in Jungshoved parish i 1809-1811.
Konfirmation in Hammer parish on the 10th of april 1825.
Her parents are Jens Nielsen Dyhr and Boel or Bodil Hansdatter, that endet living at the farm Risegaarden in Hammer parish.

And yes Kirsten/Kirstine had as sister with the same name.
Born in 1816 in Hammer parish.
Konfirmation in Allerslev parish in 1832. At that time she served husmand (smallholder) Peder Hansen in Rekkende. Peder Hansen was married to her grandmother - mothers mother - Maren Andersdatter.
In 1847 she got a son Niels Pedersen. The father of the son was Peder Hansen in Lov, Hammer parish. And I´m sure it´s the same Peder Hansen that she married in Hammer parish in 1853. Peder Hansen was born in Lov in 1827 as son of smallholder Hans Madsen and Karen Hansdatter.
In 1860 Kirsten and Peder Hansen lived in a house close to Risegaarden, Hammer parish. In 1880 they lived in Pederstrup, Mogenstrup parish.

I have the knowledge of about 60 of Kirsten Jensdatters ancestors. We share some of them.
Please look at the attached file.

Lars

[Kerry Larson]

Hello Lars,

Thanks so much for your research and the nicely sourced document you provided.  I look forward to looking at it in detail.

I'm still mentally stuck on two daughters having the same name.  Do you have any explanation for how this could happen or know of any other examples where a child was given the same name when the first one was still alive?  I could understand it if the mother changed, but that also does not appear to be the case.

It's all very interesting, but still frustrating.

Do you know the meaning of Dyhr?

Kerry

[Lars Skovvang Larsen]

Hello Kerry.

It´s far from common with siblings of the same name - but it´s seen in rare cases.
People with respect for their family did their best to name their children after grandparents, formerly deceased spouses, dead siblings and so on.
If a child was weak - expected to die - parents some times renamed a younger sibling - in advance. Could be the case with Kirsten.
And the Kirsten, that one or both Kirsten Jensdatters was named after, was most probably their fathers mothers Kirsten Rasmusdatter in Stavreby, Jungshoved parish.
And oops, I made a mistake: Kirsten born 1816 was in the house of her fathers mother - not mothers mother - at the time of konfirmation i 1832.

Dyhr - or Dyr in todays spelling - means Deer or Animal.

Lars

[Kerry Larson]

Another question for you generous collaborators; since he apparently lived in Risegård and was buried in Hammer sogn, where do you think his probate record might be located?