Markgreves regiment, kaptajn Wilsteds kompagni i Rensburg, 1741

Startet af Lisa Petersen, 11 Feb 2019 - 21:43

Forrige emne - Næste emne

Niels Just Rasmussen

Citat fra: Jan Suhr Dato 08 Jul 2020 - 14:42
A bit of an update and to keep this thread alive :-)

I have found some information about German knights coming to Denmark in the 1200-1300 era. The different Danish kings bought their services in different ways over the years. There was a lot of contact and business with the neighboring parts of northern Germany like Mecklenburg and Holstein.

In some of the old Danish castles, like Aalholm on southeastern Lolland, there were presence of German knights early on as the Kings vassals.

From my Y-DNA I know that my closest DNA-cousins were knights from Germany/Flandern that ended up on the British Isles. Our split happened around 1000 years ago ±100, we know that from surnames and coat of arms.

We also know from DNA that my branch was present on Lolland at least 5-600 years ago even a bit earlier maybe. This early DNA-Match I have (together with 2 others, we are 8th cousins) are a bit before us.

We three Suhrs have a common ancestor born in 1677. This ancestor was Bernt Frederich Suhr born in 1677-08-15 at Aalholm castle where his father Friedrich Suhr was the "Amtsforvalter" or "Lensmænd" over Lolland under the service of widowed queen Sophie Amalie. The man we have as a Y-DNA match with don't have the name Suhr but have his roots in the area around Nysted (Closest town to Aalholm) and in Nykøbing/Falster.

My theory now is that this might be the source of my Suhr families presence i Denmark, we also know that there are other families who bear the Suhr name but in the few cases we have DNA from it shows that they are in no way related to my branch. One German knight stayed there and married, if so I am his descendant.

Nothing can be proved since there are no records going back that far but with DNA we can get some indications. It would be great if we could get more DNA-samples from men with the name.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aalholm

https://www.medievalists.net/2009/07/on-german-knights-in-denmark-during-the-reign-of-valdemar-atterdag-1340-1375/

https://core.ac.uk/reader/52101334


Very interesting. Sadly Juha Heinänen doesn't give the list of those 300 knights, as it would be a pain to go through the Diplomatarium Danica to gather these names.
Maybe you could contact him to see if a Suhr figures among these 300'ed?

On my opinion he makes an error in the counting of Germans - he calls Henning Podebusk for a German?

Henning Podebusk is certainly NOT "German", but from a Slavic knightly family on Rügen [male line from Stoislaw].
So I wonder how many other Slavic nobility from Rugen is counted as "German" on his list .
Dansk: Podebusk, fortysket Putbus -> from slavisk epod boz and means "behind the elder bush".
Since Rügen was Danish territory from 1169 until 1325 is quite likely he was born while Rügen was Danish, since he probably was a bit over 25 years old when he allied himself with Valdemar Atterdag in 1350 as one of his most skilled supporters.

Steen Thomsens family tree on the Podebusk/Putbus family. Steen Thomsen has him born ~ 1325 interestingly enough.
Source: http://www.danbbs.dk/~stst/slaegt_adel/putbus_podebusk.htm
NB: Notice that he is not the only Putbus to go in Danish service after 1325.



Jan Suhr

I have been in contact with Juha Heinänen and he doesn't that much else to provide, he says it was along time ago when he did that paper and don't remembered any details.

Yes it depends who ruled the area when you was born to give you the nationality, but for those involved and affected it was a questionable issue.

It was a lot of movement in those days.

Thanks for the link.
Visit my homepage: https://www.jansuhr.se

Niels Just Rasmussen

#92
Citat fra: Lisa Petersen Dato 06 Apr 2019 - 01:32
Also, I finished looking for Hendrich Schøllermann in the Nysted Byfoged Justitsprotokoller, 1666-1709.
Lisa Petersen
near Washington, D.C.

Hi Lisa.

So since you finished the justitsprotokol, then you can continue with...

Familysearch now has the Rådstueprotokoller for Nysted online.
See: https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/533413?availability=Family%20History%20Library

Just a preliminary look-through for 1673 and I found him mentioned on page 38 low left.
"Niels Madzen paa sin hussbond Hendrich Schüllermanns ?...? ?..? Walby":  etc

Still can't find any "Borgerskabslister" so I assume that the "Borgerskab" is contained within the Rådstueprotokol.....

Page 264 a new Protokol begins with 1729, whereas the left page have entries for 1762.....
Source: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-L3JH-MF39?i=263&cat=533413

Page 200 has a list of Borgmestre and Raadmænd from 1665-1671.
Source: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-L3JH-MF8V?i=199&cat=533413

Page 202 mentions "aflagt deres Borgerlig Ed" with a list starting in 1667.
This must be the Borgerskabs-list!!
See: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-P3JH-MNQ2?i=201&cat=533413

Niels Just Rasmussen

I cannot find Hendrich Schøllermand on this Borgerskabsliste ?!

Lisa Petersen

Thank you Niels for the reply and links to new sources!  I will look at them when I can.  I have had good luck looking page by page and it is so easy to do now with AO and FS.

It will be interesting to learn where Henrich Schøllermand came from.  There must be a clue somewhere.  I also want to know what happened to his son Peder born in 1673.  I believe he is my ancestor, but I can not yet connect the Peder Schøllermand in Åle, Vrads hd., Skanderborg amt, with the son Peder born in 1673 in Nysted.  The Åle church books start in 1721, and I have nothing before that. 

On July 12 my computer died  :'(  so I am shopping for a new one and it will take some time to recover the old hard disk and return to normal (if there is normal, now, with coronavirus).

I hope you are well, and thanks again for the help.

Lisa P.
near Washington D.C.

Lisa Petersen

#95
I mentioned in my message above that there are no church records for Åle Sogn (Vrads hd., Skanderborg amt) before 1721.  Today I saw on page 76 of Personalhistorisk Tidsskrift 1882 1. rk. 3. band, some information about baptisms that took place in Åle Kirke in 1707 and 1713:

"Hans Omgangskreds, naar han opholdt sig hjemme paa sine Gaarde, synes ikke at have været stor. Det er ialtfald kun hans egen allernærmeste Slægt, som han beder til Faddere ved sine Børns Daab. Da han saaledes d. 21 August 1707 lod sin Søn Georg Christoffer eller, som han i Daaben efter Giord Galt var kaldet, Giord Christoffer, døbe i Aale Kirke, vare kun hans Svoger Major Frederik Christian Gjedde paa Hastrup med sin Frue Helvig Lindenov Unger, hans Svigersøn Ritmester v. d. Brincken paa Haraldskjær med sin Frue og hans Søn af første Ægteskab Ole Rudolph Krabbe paa Bjerre Vidner.1) Ved hans Søn Frederik Christian Krabbes Daab i samme Kirke d. 13 August 1713 vare Følgende Faddere: Oberstlieutenant Gjedde, Ritmester v. d. Brincken, Johan Rudolph Krabbe og »Olaus« Rudolph Krabbe med sin Frue.1)"

The source of these baptisms is given in the article as  1) Døbeattest i Enkekassens Archiv.  Where is this Enkekassens Arkiv?

Thank you.

Lisa P.
near Washington D.C.

Helmer Christiansen

From the Danish Wikipedia https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enkekasse via Google Translate:
The widow's fund (Enkekasse) is an institution that must ensure the participants' widows a certain sum on the death of the husband or an annual benefit, as long as they are widows. In Denmark, they were established both by the state and by private initiative.
In 1707 the first widow's fund was established for the land military service under the state's guarantee for the fund's obligations, and in 1740 this was extended to provide access for all estates. On July 19, 1775, the "Ordinary Widow's Fund" was established, in which in 1788 it was imposed on the officials as a duty to make deposits. At the same time as the establishment of the ordinary widow's fund, the former widow's fund ceased to admit new members. The ordinary widow's fund did not receive new deposits after 31 August 1845, when the Annuity and Maintenance Institution of 1842 took its place. The last widow to receive payment from the fund died in 1921. Both of the aforementioned widow funds have caused great losses to the state treasury.

At Rigsarkivet there is a scanned index for The Land Military Service and The Ordinary Widow's Fund's depositors and their wives 1739-1846 https://www.sa.dk/find/#q=Indskyderne&side=1&at=Scannede+arkivalier
Helmer Christiansen
2000 F

Niels Just Rasmussen

#97
Citat fra: Lisa Petersen Dato 19 Mar 2019 - 18:27
Citat fra: Lisa Petersen [51781] Dato 19 Mar 2019 - 00:35
I think you are right about the Friderich Skøllermand in Norway.  The title of the article is "Privatansatte tollbetjenter i Norge i dansketiden."  Thank you for finding that.  I found the author on a web page so I might send him an email.

The author says Friderich Skøllermand was employed by Norwegian merchants as a customs officer in Trondheim in 1696-1698.  It must be Friderich, son of Hendrich in Nysted.

Lisa P.

A Friderich Schøllermand from Norwegian archives:

Friderich Schøllerman "Ørland prestegjeld 1733-1761" (Sør-Trøndelag fylke).
A bastard child [Martha Dorothea] born in 1742 to Friderich Schøllerman & Elisabeth Higraph.
Source: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/view/261/hd00000000708553
&
Original:
....."döbt Friderich Schöllermanns uægte barn ?aflet? [dansk: avled?] med Elisabeth ?Hyraft?/?Higraph? -  N[avnlig] Martha Dorothea...
Source [third column mid]: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/16159/31

Catharina Thullin: Friderich Schölermand's widow. "Skifteregister for Trondheim by 1678-1810".
1745: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/view/27/pa00000000760520
&
Originalen: "Skifte forretning efter afgangne Catharina Thullin h[ustru] Schiölermands".
See: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/25091/372

Trolovelser Trondheim Domkirken 1679-1699:
Frideric Schøllermand
5/2 1698
Cathrine Johansdatter Tullin
Kilde: http://slektshistorie.blogspot.com/2008/03/trolovelser-trondheim-domkirken-1679.html
&
Original [4-øverst venstre]: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/16323/50746/53

Niels Just Rasmussen

#98
Trondheim Vår Frue kirke - diverse begravelser 1732-1765:
Schiølermans, Catherina Kulinoff - 10/7 1745, 73 aar
Kilde: http://slektshistorie.blogspot.com/2008/01/
&
The above is a mistake as it from the original reads:
Trondheim prestegjeld, Vår Frue kirke sokn. Døde og begravde: 1732-1773.
"10. Juli [1745] blef paa Frue kirkegaard begravet Catharina Thulin af?[gangne?] Schiölermans. 73 aar."
Original (3-øverst højre): https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/16344/50796/20
- does the "af?." mean "afgangne" so that Friderich Schøllerman is dead before July 1745? [it really doesn't look like it says "h?" for hustru].


PS: Higraf looks to be a place in Hadsel [North Norway].
Source: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/search/properties?s=higraf+hadsel&from=&to=&municipality_parish=&address=&municipality_no=&plot_no=&unit_no=&property_no=&serial_no=&urban_property_no=&fire_ass_no=&sort=rel

Hadsel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadsel

Niels Just Rasmussen

Trondheim byfogd. Pantebok nr. 3, 1709-1720:
page 85: [starts bottom left]
"Suend Busches skiøde til Catharina Tullin". 11. Juni 1711.
&
Followed by a crossed-over "Catharina Tullin h. Schøllermans obligation til de herrer inspecteurer ofuer Brandts capital". 11. Juni 1711
Kilde: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/20229/88

Niels Just Rasmussen

#100
Friderich Schøllermand is NOT on this list of "Borgerskab i Trondheim".
Notis over de personer som har vunnet sine borgerskap siden rådstueskriveren Friderich Bechs ankomst, 1692-1706:
Kilde (s. 47): https://dis-danmark.dk/bibliotek/910413.pdf

Manntall over kongelige sivile og militære betjenter samt borgere og innvånere i Trondhjem, ca 1714-1715:
Effterschrefne Befindis U-formuende, saa de samme ej Noget udj Extra ordinaire schatten kand Contribuere Nembl.
Enchen Skiollermands [!].
Kilde (s. 66, left column): https://dis-danmark.dk/bibliotek/910413.pdf
NB: So this widow can't be from Friderich Schøllermand as he gets a bastard child in 1742 ? [unless Friderich Schøllermand had a son with the same name who then gets a bastard child in 1742?].

Manntall over Trondhjems borgere 1722:
8.99 Hans Kipper / <Roedmæster> Roedmester
9 Chatrine Tullin / holder een kramboed / eier huus og grd. [She has a second-hand shop -> the "hus" : and a "gaard" [her home?].
Kilde (s. 76, right column): https://dis-danmark.dk/bibliotek/910413.pdf
NB: She is not listed as a widow or as wife?

Regnskap for Kjøbenhavns brannstyr av Trondhiem by 1730: [tax for the rebuilding of Copenhagen after The Great Fire of 1728]
Wor Frue Kirke Sogn.
Catharina Thulin ..................................................................1-0 [1 Rigsdaler].
Kilde (s. 84, bottom left coloum): https://dis-danmark.dk/bibliotek/910413.pdf
NB: So she is paying one of the smallest amounts of the people on the list, so she is not among the wealthy in the town.

Manntall over Trondhjems bys familier og håndkverner, 5 mars 1687:
Femte Rode
302.Johan Tullin, hans hustrue, 6 børen, 2 tiennestefolch. 10 personer.
Kilde (s. 23): https://dis-danmark.dk/bibliotek/910413.pdf
NB: Possibly Catharina Thulin's father.
&
Johan Tullin............................................................................. 1 handquern
(page 32).

Niels Just Rasmussen

#101
Johan Vibe's characteristics of Trondheim inhabitants 1708.
Johan Tullin: "er ikkun slet og ret i vilkaar"
Kilde (s. 58): https://dis-danmark.dk/bibliotek/910413.pdf

Moths Ordbog:
Slet og ret adj. kaldes den, som er ærlig, oprigtig, og ei vêd at behielpe sig med konster.
Source: https://mothsordbog.dk/ordbog?select=Slet%20og%20ret&query=slet

So Johan Tullin "is not-without/nothing-else (than) honesty/sincerity in conditions/circumstances" would probably be the correct translation of Johan Vibe's words.

Skifteforretning efter ?..? Johan Thullin. 22. November 1715:
Kilde (s. 148): https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/25083/148

Niels Just Rasmussen

#102
What is really weird is that Friderich Schøllermand doesn't seem to appear in the: "Skifteregister for Trondheim by 1678-1810".
But perhaps his wife [Catharina Johansdatter Thullin] chose to have "uskiftet bo"...?

-------------------

Found a "Christian Petter Schiølermand" in Bergen : "Korskirken prestegjeld 1698-1719".
Appears as "Fadder" in 1704.
Source: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/view/255/pd00000006081990
Original (s. 141, bottom right): https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/8673/74

Skifte - Utdrag av registreringsprotokoller for Bergen, 1675-1683, 1695-1696 og 1721-1738:
Petter Schullerman. Smed.
Died 1724.
Source: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/view/27/pa00000000045873
Probably the same as Christian Petter Schiølermand.
&
Transkription:
17. Maj 1724.
"Skifte sat efter Petter Schullerman. Smed. Enke Karen Andersdatter. Arvinger i Tyskland."
Kilde (s. 1380 nederst): https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/67590/59

Here several times where he appears as Christian (Petter/Peter) Schølermand 1705-1722 in Bergen - Korskirken:
Source: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/search/persons?s=sch%C3%B8lermand&event_year_from=&event_year_to=&event_date=

Married 19. February 1705 in Bergen, Korskirken.
Christian Peter Schølermand, smed og Kisten Rasmusdatter.
Original: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/8680/27

Married 13. Maj 1722 in Bergen, Korskirken.
Christian Peter Schølermand og Karen Andersdatter.
Original: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/8680/65

Lisa Petersen

Hej Helmer, thank you for the information and links about the Enkekasse.  I checked the register and found a few distant relatives, so some day I will follow up on those.  It sounds like a good source of information, and one that can be used when church books have gone missing.

Hej Niels, thank you so much for all the links about the Schøllermands in Norway.  I did look at arkivet.no a while ago and found some of the relatives.  I think the earliest Frederik Schøllermand died in the early 1700s, maybe 1705, but I don't think I ever found solid proof.  Perhaps he didn't die in Trondheim?  I think he was the son of Henrik Schøllermand in Nysted.  Others with the name in Norway, well, I'm not sure how they connect.  I still don't have my new computer or access to my family research, but when I get it, I will follow your links and maybe figure out some connections.

Regarding the raadstueprotokoller of Nysted, I looked through all the images and found H.S. on only 4 pages.  I did not see him in the borgerskaber, like you said.  I wonder if customs officers in Nysted and Trondheim did not need to apply for borgerskab because they were appointed as government officials?

Thank you both for helping me!

Lisa P.
near Washington D.C.

Niels Just Rasmussen

Citat fra: Lisa Petersen Dato 22 Jul 2020 - 19:26

Hej Niels, thank you so much for all the links about the Schøllermands in Norway.  I did look at arkivet.no a while ago and found some of the relatives.  I think the earliest Frederik Schøllermand died in the early 1700s, maybe 1705, but I don't think I ever found solid proof.  Perhaps he didn't die in Trondheim?  I think he was the son of Henrik Schøllermand in Nysted.  Others with the name in Norway, well, I'm not sure how they connect.  I still don't have my new computer or access to my family research, but when I get it, I will follow your links and maybe figure out some connections.

Regarding the raadstueprotokoller of Nysted, I looked through all the images and found H.S. on only 4 pages.  I did not see him in the borgerskaber, like you said.  I wonder if customs officers in Nysted and Trondheim did not need to apply for borgerskab because they were appointed as government officials?

Thank you both for helping me!

Lisa P.
near Washington D.C.

Hi Lisa.

Yeah its definitely a trend that neither Hendrich Schøllermand in Nysted nor Friderich Schøllermand in Trondheim acquired "borgerskab" in their respective towns.
Maybe their pay were simply to low for them to wish to become a citizen? As they weren't craftsmen nor merchants it wasn't apparently needed, if you were a "tolder" appointed as a civil servant by the King, as you speculate.

The smith Christian Petter Schøllermand had family, that could inherit him, in Germany, so he doesn't seem to be a close relative of Hendrich Schøllermand ?!

Friderich Schøllermand is definitely alive in 1698 when engaged to Catharina Thullin and must be dead before 1714-15 when "Enchen Skiollermands" is mentioned.
The "pantebreve" from 1711 has Madame Catharina Thullin and mentioned as "h. Schöllermands" [but it is unclear if Friderich Schøllermand is alive or dead by this date].
Still very strange that no "skifte" after him exist in Trondheim as he quite possibly had a son - the Friderich Schøllermann that makes  a girl pregnant in 1742.


Niels Just Rasmussen

#105
Catharina Thullin: Friderich Schölermand's widow. "Skifteregister for Trondheim by 1678-1810".
Originalen: "Skifte forretning efter afgangne Catharina Thullin h[ustru] Schiölermands".
See: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/25091/372

This "skifte" is very long and strangely no mention of the Schøllermand-family [except for Catharina being "h. Schøllermands"].
There is one interesting entry.
[pages. 799b-800a, fourth column] "Juni 1711: Catharina Thullin h. Schøllermands, som laugverge Johan Thulin". 
So why would Catharina Thulin need her own father a guardian, unless her husbond had died and he had to oversee the inheritance for her behalf.....
[Suppose it could also be the death of another relative, but it is still noteworthy].
If Catharina Thullin had lived on in an "uskiftet bo", then relatives of Hendrich Schøllermand [children, and if none, then siblings] should inherit when she died?!

Skifteforretning efter ?..? Johan Thullin. 22. November 1715:
Kilde (s. 148): https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/25083/148
&
Here is mentioned "Madame Catharina Toldforvalters " [must be Schøllermand as Toldforvalter?]
Then later as "daatteren Catharina Tullin...faaet sin mødrernes arv"
Source (s. 148b-149a): https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/25083/151

Jan Suhr

I found this interesting report, it list a few names over the years in the 17th century and the relations with Hamburg and Lübeck.

You might find something in this.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/03585522.1963.10414343
Visit my homepage: https://www.jansuhr.se


Grethe Leerbech

Hey Lisa, Niels and jan
You are wondering why you cannot find the "borgerskab" of Schøllermanns and his "skifte",
as "tolder" Schøllermann is an official dirictly under/belonging to the king and state  He is not obliged to be a citizen or to obtain a "borgerskab" in any city as other officials, and when he dies normally his "skifte" will be done by the kings officials and protocolled in the protocolls for "Hof- og Stat" or "kancelliets protokoller".
To find his appointment and also his application you have to look in "kancelliets protokoller". Which of them spcific I haven't looked for.

ex. Also officials didn't pay any tax to the local administrations- mostly they were tax free except for those tax the king required especially of them. Ex. The King often required a "Krigsstyr" that is a wartax, but also this tax officials often shouldn't pay.
Grethe
Thyholm,Vang, Gislum,Hornum,Hindsted, Slet, Års i Aalborg a. Ginding,Ringkøbing a.Rinds, Fjends,Hindborg,Viborg a. Nybøl, Sottrup,Sønderbog a.sogne i Tyskland, Sunds,Svendborg a.Tuse,Års,Løve i Holbæ

Lisa Petersen

Hej Grethe

Thank you for the reply.  Now I can stop looking for his borgerskab.

It is possible that he did not have a skifte, because his youngest child was 29 years old and married when he died in 1707.  I wish I could find one because it might list his surviving children and where they lived.  I assume his widow did not have a skifte for the same reason.  She died in 1710.

I have found 3 references to his appointment as tolder in Nysted, but not any original records, yet.

Schüller, Henrik, 1680, 8. Januar, Tolder i Nysted (Rk. origin. Resol. (Seddel Registr.)
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=18484342#236931,45098593

Schullmann, Heinrich (el. Sküllemand) 1680 12. januar, Tolder i Nysted (med Eed) (jfr Bb. 19a fol. 3.)  [Bb = Bestallingsbog]
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=18484342#236931,45098591

1680, Jan. 8, Henrik Schüllerman maa nyde Tolderiet i Nysted, som forhen er lovet ham.  Orig.  3479.
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=18484358#236983,45101226

I have much more research to do on Henrich Schøllermand and his children.  And I'm still looking for proof that I descend from him and his son Peder.

Thanks for your help, Grethe.

Lisa P.

Grethe Leerbech

Hej Lisa

A long time ago you asked for that.

CitatAlso, I finished looking for Hendrich Schøllermann in the Nysted Byfoged Justitsprotokoller, 1666-1709.  I found many cases, but here is one I think is the most interesting:

8 Dec 1690, Christoffer Hansen Loøsholdt who married daughter Sophia Amalia Henriksen 1 month before this.  Left page below date, https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20651493#315648,64735347
What does it say about the mother and grandmother?  And why is this case in the tingbog?

Thanks for any help with Dronningens Lakaj and the 1690 tingbog case.

I have looked it up, but has diffucult in reading it, so i have put the text to be read in the forum. "Hjælp til oversættelse"
hoping someone can see whats it about. But i think it's about Sophia Amalia inheritage efter her mother..


Grethe 
Thyholm,Vang, Gislum,Hornum,Hindsted, Slet, Års i Aalborg a. Ginding,Ringkøbing a.Rinds, Fjends,Hindborg,Viborg a. Nybøl, Sottrup,Sønderbog a.sogne i Tyskland, Sunds,Svendborg a.Tuse,Års,Løve i Holbæ

Grethe Leerbech

Hi again Lisa

As you can see from the link here, I have sent the text to transcribering in the forum "Hjælp til tydning af tekster"

https://forum.slaegt.dk/index.php/topic,165159.0.html

When I got answar about how to understand the text I will translate it -as correct as possible - and put it here in this forum.
Grethe
Thyholm,Vang, Gislum,Hornum,Hindsted, Slet, Års i Aalborg a. Ginding,Ringkøbing a.Rinds, Fjends,Hindborg,Viborg a. Nybøl, Sottrup,Sønderbog a.sogne i Tyskland, Sunds,Svendborg a.Tuse,Års,Løve i Holbæ

Grethe Leerbech

Translation of the document in Nysted 1690:

C.H.L. citizen and resident here in the city, stood for the court where he gave his father-in-law Higest Majesty Costumer H.S. living same place, whole waiver and reciept for the inheritage, all parts and rights Løesholdts wife S.A.H. has inherit from her blessed grandmother Anna Simon Schuster in Copenhagen and her blessed mother Barbra Simonsdaughter, for which inherit C.H. (L) after his own statement is satisfied and therefore he takes his father-in-laws payment for good and accurate payment in all ways, as withnesses on the written document......

If you read the "talk" about this , it sounds as if Christoffer has got some money from his father-in law, with what he is satisfied. Ole Westerman writes that he means the son-in-law has got a payment earlier. (not in connection with the document here, but it cannot be solved when and how much)

Grethe
Thyholm,Vang, Gislum,Hornum,Hindsted, Slet, Års i Aalborg a. Ginding,Ringkøbing a.Rinds, Fjends,Hindborg,Viborg a. Nybøl, Sottrup,Sønderbog a.sogne i Tyskland, Sunds,Svendborg a.Tuse,Års,Løve i Holbæ

Lisa Petersen

Hej Grethe

Thank you for bringing up this old question and getting help from the other forum with reading and interpreting the document.  Thanks to Poul and Ole for transcribing.  This contains some good information — that Barbara's parents were Simon Schuster & Anna in Kbh, Anna died before 1690, C.H.L. was borger of Nysted, and I think Barbara was more likely born in Kbh than in Nysted.  That saves me some time, looking for things in the wrong places.  I will have to look for Simon Schuster & Anna in Kbh.  I did find that C.H.L. became borger in 1684. 

Since Ole found something in the Kirkeregnskaber, I will look at those too.  Perhaps it will give information that I'm not able to find in the rest of the KB (a wife's name, approx. year of death before burial records start).

Thank you so much for helping me with the Henrich Schøllermand family in Nysted.  I do think he is my ancestor, but I am still looking to prove the connection to my Peder Schøllermand in the Skanderborg and Koldinghus rytterdistrikter.

mvh
Lisa P.

Grethe Leerbech

Hi Lisa
About the churchchairs I'll give you following informations:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-894D-78K9?i=13&wc=M5KY-PY3%3A357518001%2C358297701%2C358297702%2C358402601&cc=2078555

september 1670 H.S. buy a seat in chair nr. 8 in the row (opslag 14) and in (opslag 47) he sells the seat 8 place 1 again  and buy chair nr. 5 place 1 (opslag 45) .
Which means he moves up nearer to the alter and maybe under the prists stool. No. 1 seat is also the first one by the hallway. He buys it in the old church, He doesn't buy any chair/seats to his wife -which amazes me a little.  If you read it more carefully maybe you can find it. it's under "quinders stolestader" Also he doesn't buy any chair or stool in the new church. I think you know that one sits in a row in the churches, so the row has numbers and also the the seat in the row.
Grethe
Thyholm,Vang, Gislum,Hornum,Hindsted, Slet, Års i Aalborg a. Ginding,Ringkøbing a.Rinds, Fjends,Hindborg,Viborg a. Nybøl, Sottrup,Sønderbog a.sogne i Tyskland, Sunds,Svendborg a.Tuse,Års,Løve i Holbæ

Grethe Leerbech

#115
Hi Lisa

Looked also in the regnskabsbog from 1661-95 and found following.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-894D-78BK?i=65&wc=M5KY-PTB%3A357518001%2C358297701%2C

opslag 40 money for chairs both for men and woman-H.S. bought both
Opslag 52, child dead and Barbra dead 1671
opslag 60-61-65 He paid "landgilde" for some field he has rented from the church (to his horses)
Opslag 66 - se that childs dead and his second wife kirsten jacobsdatter-she is also mentioned at Barbras dead.
it looks like Kirsten was a widow because at he dead Henrik gives 200rd to the church in memory of her blessed husband
it says "Annammet af Hendrich Schøllermand 200 rd
som hans hustru Kirsten Jacobsdatter foræret til Nysted kirke,  efter Hindes? Sl. (salig) mands død ....? videre forklaring findes .."
next page above.
Efter skiftebrevet efter Sl. Peder Ibsen
Hvilchen vorlyiering Gud igien Rige-
ligen vill Belønne

Under barnet står der Kirsten Jensd? Sl.(=salig) Peder Ibsen

it could be that It is Peter Ibsens child who are dead not Hendriks - then you yourself can look more in this book.
Is he married 3rd times- Annammet means "Got from" or "became from" 

Ypu can get this trinscribed and translated ..


Thyholm,Vang, Gislum,Hornum,Hindsted, Slet, Års i Aalborg a. Ginding,Ringkøbing a.Rinds, Fjends,Hindborg,Viborg a. Nybøl, Sottrup,Sønderbog a.sogne i Tyskland, Sunds,Svendborg a.Tuse,Års,Løve i Holbæ

Ole Westermann

#116
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-894D-78N1?i=21&wc=M5KY-PY3%3A357518001%2C358297701%2C358297702%2C358402601&cc=2078555 top right in row 2 chair 1

Ao 1670 in Septembr (deleted?) feste Hinrich Schullerman
till sin Hustru Barbra ? gaff 6 mark

- and Barbra was buried inside the church i 1671

mvh Ole

Grethe Leerbech

Here is Hendrichs dead,which you couldn't find in the churchbook. There are no date only year 1707. 

Sahl. Zolder Hendrich
Skÿllermands liig for
Jorden og alle Klocker samt
for kirckens Lius som Brendte
under Prædiken   2Rd

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-894D-78BK?i=65&wc=M5KY-PTB%3A357518001%2C358297701%2C

You are lucky that Nysted had all those regnskabsbøger as the churchbook had that lacune and is awfully written.
There is also a daughter dead in this book what opslag i forgot to write down, unfortunately 
Thyholm,Vang, Gislum,Hornum,Hindsted, Slet, Års i Aalborg a. Ginding,Ringkøbing a.Rinds, Fjends,Hindborg,Viborg a. Nybøl, Sottrup,Sønderbog a.sogne i Tyskland, Sunds,Svendborg a.Tuse,Års,Løve i Holbæ

Ole Westermann

At image 66 left bottom in January 1674 is written:

Annammet af Hindrich Schüllermand Capital 100 (rd)
Som hans k. Hustro Kirsten Jacobsdatter
hafuer forEret till Nysteds Kirche effter hindeß
Sl. Mands Død, huoromb widere Forklaring findeß
Udi Schiffte Breffuet effter Sl. Peder Ibsen
Huilchen Welgierning Gud igien Rige-
lichen will belønne.
   ------ translation:
Recieved from Hindrich Schüllermand capital 100 rd
which his dear wife Kirsten Jacobsdatter
has donated to Nysted Church after her
late husbands death, about which explanation is found
in the probate letter after late Peder Ibsen*
which benefaction God again plentifully
will reward.

*Peder Ibsen, alderman (Raadmand) in Nysted was buried 5 days after Barbara Simonsdatter inside the church in Nysted.
HS and PI's widow Kirsten Jacobsdatter prob. got married in 1672, as they had their son Peder baptized July 23, 1673 (im.150).
But this Peder is prob. buried in the church next to Peder Ibsen on Nov. 30 same year (im.66 - regnskaber)
- then they get Barbara bp. Au. 14,1674 - Øllegaard bp. Oct. 8,1676 - Ide-Øllegaard bp. Jun.16,1678 -
- and then it stopped.


Lisa Petersen

Thank you Grethe and Ole for finding more information about the family in the kirkeregnskaber.  The burials of Barbara Simonsdatter, her child, and Peder Ibsen on ops. 55 is a good find because there are no death/burial records for this time.  Perhaps this church thought the accounts were an adequate record of the deaths and did not need to be repeated in a separate burials section in the KB. 

I am worried about H.S.'s child who was buried on 30 Dec 1673.  The first child of H.S. and 2nd wife Kirsten Jacobsdatter was Peder, baptized on 23 Jul 1673.  I think he is my ancestor who lived in Åle (Skanderborg Rytterdistrikt), Bække sogn (Anst herred, Ribe amt), and died in Egtved (Koldinghus Rytterdistrikt), in 1745, aged over 70 years (so born before 1675), so I want him to be the Peder born in 1673.  I will look for Peder Ibsen's children and hope that could explain it.

Thanks again for all the help with this.

mvh
Lisa P.