Markgreves regiment, kaptajn Wilsteds kompagni i Rensburg, 1741

[Lisa Petersen]

Hej Grethe

Wow, thank you for the matrikelbøger sources you found.  That is something new that I can search for other ancestors in other places.  I am surprised that a book from 1817, if I am reading that correctly, would have the name of an owner who died in 1707.

Ane Margrethe Sørensdatter's name is found in the death record of son Hans Christopher S. (maybe other records too).  Åle is the only place where her last name is Klein.

I think the word after Mette Friderica is Cathrine.  I have never found any other information on the 3 daughters.  And yes Peder Schøllermanns occupation in his death record is aftakkede rytter.

It seems as though Peder & his wife are in the mid-upper class in Åle, and even in Bække she is called Madme Schöllermanns, once in 1733.  But something must have happened.  They stop sponsoring other children and die poor in Egtved.

Unfortunately there are some missing records - no Åle church books before 1721, no Tyrsting-Vrads herred tingbøger 1722-1734.  I have not found any fæsteprotokoller for Bække.

I will look more at the matrikelbøger today.  Thanks again for finding those records about H.S.

Lisa P.

[Grethe Leerbech]

When we work with people living so long back-in the 1600-1700 there are often big holes in the materials -unfortunately - and it takes so much time to find but a little bid or hint. Also one have to go to materials far away from the headlines.

So I have looked Skøder- og panteprotokolelr from Viborg landsting through from 1680-1740 about Ole Krabbe and his daughter Ide Sophie Gjedde, to see if we can find anything about Peder Schøllerman from Åle. But didn't find anything. Ole has bought-through his life- a lot of  properties with farmers lots on and he has also inherit some, and got some from marriage.
here is a link to Viborg Landsting, if you scroll down you will find  skøder- og panteprotokoller, and also you will find register to skøder- og panteprotokoller, and a lot more in Landstinget.  But it is difficult to read , The number in the register means Folio and it is written -the number - in the upper right corner of the books. In the register one can both look for names of person, of farms, castles, mannors and villages and places.  remember to look in the register in all the mentioned years- there can be up to 3 books for the same years.

https://arkivalielister.dis-danmark.dk/ao_alt_vis_navne.php?stil=2&navn=Viborg+Landsting&sort=a&max=1

Ide Sophie was the daughter who inherit the Bjerregård and she often had short of money, and then she pawned her land and farms, but now sign of Peder Schøllermand mentioned as tenant. He was not either mentioned in the early pawns of Ole Krabbe.

Now I only miss to look at The skifte from Ole and also at the skifte from Oles second wifes husbands dead, to see if Peder is mentioned there as tenant. If not i am nearly sure that peter has owned his own house, and then it could be we find the bought in Viborg landsting, or that Peter is the Johan Pieter Ole Krabbe has given a house to rent in Åle. The skifte from his first wife I have looked through because it contens one of my own ancestors.

When I find the skifte I will give you the links-

About a link between Henrik in Nysted and Peder in Åle, Peder is also calling his daughter Øllegård which Henrik also do, calls 2 daughter. Øllegård is a rare name.
I still find it curious that Henrik should put his own son in a foreign man's  burial place. To give him his former wifes husbands name I accept and acknowledge , but as said - in that time people had other norms and culture habbits, which we don't know anything about. 

The matrikelbooks are often copied and overwritten  (so save paper and work) through times so former owners are not deleted, so it's also with the matrikelmaps.

Grethe 

[Grethe Leerbech]

Lisa
here is Oles understanding of the word "cadsrier".  which I find very true. He means he is the barber of Ole Krabbe.

https://forum.slaegt.dk/index.php/topic,165896.new.html#new 

I didn't find the skifte or testamente from neither Ole Krabbe or Ide Sophies Gjeddes former fiancee F. Unger, who died in 1697. I found a papir where Ungers brother renounced his inherit- but no list of farms,farmers etc.  I am told that the King has signed it, so it must excist- maybe in Danske kancelli.

But I found this-unfortunately in danish - but it gives a realy solid information of Åle sogn and it's history. And we can also see, that Peder (Henriksen) Schøllermann has not been any tennants in Åle. It's very god written and very carefully with the informations. Hoping you can read a little of it. or ask if there is something you want to be explained.

https://dis-danmark.dk/bibliotek/807007.pdf

[Grethe Leerbech]

Also I found this, but cant' find a copy of it on the net.

John Kvist has written a book in 1936, and Vald. Andersen has prepared it with new informations and new findings in 1973. Kvist book is reprinted in 1972. 

Bække (Anst herred, Ribe amt)

    Kvist, John og Vald. Andersen: Bække Sogn. Historisk Udvalg for Bække Sogn, 1936 -73. 2 bd. (bd. 1 genoptr. 1972).

[Lisa Petersen]

He Grethe

I think now the matrikelbøger numbers 1793-1837 are book numbers and not years.   The matrikelbøger were created in 1688.  I found a guide to Christian 5.'s matrikelbøger that shows which books contain which parishes. 

https://dis-danmark.dk/bibliotek/900058.pdf

Aale is in matrikelbog nr. 1829.  1688 is a little early for my ancestors, and I didn't find any familiar names.

Regarding Viborg Landstings skøde- og panteprotokoller, there is a large index of persons names

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/billedviser?bsid=188617#188617,31881163

I don't know if that contains all the personal names in the indexes for each of the years.  I did not find Schøllermands in the large index.

Thanks for trying to get interpretation on Cadsrier.  Badskier?  Could be.  I would wish for the occupation to be written after his name, not after the child's name.  I thought the word was Cathrine.

I think the name Øllegaard came from Øllegaard Barnewitz of Rudbjerggaard, daughter of Frederik von Barnewitz and Ida Jørgensdatter Grubbe, wife of Christian von Bulow.  She was a sponsor at Peder's baptism (but not H.S.'s daughters Ide-Øllegaard). 

Thanks for the link to the Åle history.  It is nice that it gives the history of the farms in the parish.  I can copy & paste the text into google translate if I need to. 

I will look for a skifte for Ole Krabbe.  There should be one.  Peder S. left Åle in about 1732, so if his widow requested an uskiftet bo and she lived that long, Peder would probably not be mentioned.

Lisa P.

[Ole Westermann]

Lisa

Thanks for trying to get interpretation on Cadsrier.  Badskier?  Could be.  I would wish for the occupation to be written after his name, not after the child's name.  I thought the word was Cathrine.

Looking again at https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/billedviser?bsid=171056#171056,28713120 I think I was wrong
about my 'Badschier' - Cadhrine shall prob. be read as Cathrine - see also Nygaards
https://www.ddd.dda.dk/nygaard/visning_billed.asp?id=332384&sort=e
- Nygaard usually uses K for the original C -

mvh Ole

[Lisa Petersen]

Thanks, Ole, for taking another look at the mystery word.  I do think it's Cathrine.  There is another Cathrine clearly written 2 pages later, where t looks like d and there is no doubt about the -ine ending.

Lena Cathrine Krabbe, 27 Dec 1727
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/billedviser?bsid=171056#171056,28713122

Maybe some day I will find Mette Friderica Cathrine Pedersdatter as an adult and will be able to confirm her name.

Yesterday I searched the Bjerre Gods fæsteprotokoller from 1719 when Peder Skøllermand gets his house until 1738 after he moved to Bække sogn.  Sometimes a record names the previous tenant, so I hoped to find Peder's name in the record of the next tenant of Peder's house.  But no, nothing.  I did notice that his name in the index to the fæstepr. is spelled Møllermand.   

Thanks for the continued help!

Lisa P.

[Grethe Leerbech]

Hej Lisa

Have just looked once again atPpeter Schøllermann.
First I have tried to find Ole Krabbes skifte or testamente, but it seems it does'nt excist.
Then.
In 1721 Peder S. was 45 years, when he got his second child . I think at that time he was already "Aftakket/abdanken  rytter" so he was not young. Ole Krabbe had many former soldiers as tennants, and his friends etc. also often were from the military. Ole self stopped about 1698 when he married Kirsten Schwichtenberg, he served all he's time at 3. Jyske Rytteriregiment and ended as ritmester (ridermaster) . So Peder could easely be one of his riders.
The contract with Johan Pieter shows, that it is a house in åle town, not a farm, and also Peders friends lives in the town and has something to do with the mannor ex. gartner, Ladefoged, Miller etc. Peder could have been Ole Krabbes postrider. or maybe one of his drivers. But as postrider he would be a betrotted employed at Ole's and as an official Ole needs a postdriver, also because he lived on his mannor not in Copenhagen. And therefore his family was sponsors to Peders children. but of course just a guess. Also the speculations about his son Ole Krabbe and his marry with a much younger girl, could it be arranged . W will never know.

When Ole dies Peder is 55 years old and I think, that at that time he is worn out and should be pensioned-so if he stays in Åle to about 1735-38 he is already an old man in his 60ties.
That is when we have speculated in what have happend since he moved to Bække, I am sure it is because he was getting to old to work at or for the mannor, so that also explained the apparently poverty in Bække, we can see-about the case with Ulf and the stolen cabbage. It could then be that he has got a small house with little earth to grow from the Bjerregård, but he could also get it from other or buyed it himself. Bække is another Herred Anst herred, I haven't looked there ...

The Book about Bække sogn is not on the net and not at the slægtforskernes bibliotek, so only at the localarchiev in Anst one can get it and of course in some bibliotecs one can order it.

Here I give you all the archieved about Ole Krabbe,I have only scimmed them, so when Ide Gjedde,Ole Krabbes widow sells her inheritage it could be that we find Peder Schøllermann among those in the "jordebøger". they are difficult to read, but it is possible

Ole Krabbe.

It could be that the opslags numbers are not similar to the ones you get, when you use your pc- but there are just around the same opslag as mentioned here.

Jyske registre 1710-15 opslag 22 folio 218 Bevilling til testamente. He asked for it, but it seems it has never been written      or found. -but there are many informations there
Jyske registre 1725-30 opslag 501 folio 496,
jyske registre 1730-32 -book 2 opslag 249 left side, folio 244

Viborg landsting, Skøder- og panteprotokoller.

Oluf Krabbe:
1724-1727 opslag 137 folio 210, opslag 139 folio 211, opslag 540 folio 606

Ida Sophie Gjedde.
1727-31
opslag 232 folio 317
opslag 253 folio 337

1731-34
opslag 211 folio 189
-         260 -      237
-         282 -      255
-         309 -       282
-         326 -       298
-         423 -       392
-         454 -       416
-         537 -       491
-         582 -       526
-         81           719   book 3
-         132  -           765 do.

Most of them contens jordebøger with names of the tennants and farmers, but Ide Sophie has dealt with her sons and doughters so the house in Åle maybe belongs to one of her children and therefore is not mentioned in her lists when she pawns or sold any of the properties.

It would have been nice if we could find a pension for Peder S. or a skifte from his wife. but..... they must be in Egtved, which i think is Vejle amt, Jerlev herred. Also I hope that Peder S. occurs in the book about Bække,. You could ask here if anyone has the book and would look if he is mentioned there.   

[Lisa Petersen]

Thank you, Grethe, for finding the Jyske Register and Viborg Landsting pages for me to look at.  I was able to find them all.  I did not find Peder S., unfortunately.  I did find some jordebøger with names of tenants, and that can be very helpful, especially between the years the large detailed jordebøger were created.

I also looked for about 60 of my ancestors and some place names in both the Jyske Register and Viborg Landsting indexes.  This has kept me busy almost 2 weeks.  Most of my people are not in either source, but I did find a few and am still working on following those leads. 

Why are there deeds in the Viborg Landsting?  There was a problem or dispute with the deeds?

Your explanation about Peder S. being too old to work and poor is quite likely.  Being over 70 years old when he died in Jan 1746 means he can be a son of Henrich in Nysted, but being born that early means he was getting married at about age 47 and having children from age 48 to 65.  Perhaps the age at death is a mistake and he was younger, but so unhealthy that he looked much older.  Also Peder S. does not name a daughter Kirsten, after Henrich's wife & Peder's mother.  I will keep looking, and hopefully find a clue somewhere.

Thanks again for all your help with this.  It has been very interesting to research.

[Grethe Leerbech]

About the deeds.
When you buy a property in Denmark- also at that time,historical time - one have to public it and to get it confirmed by the autorities.
One had to get it "read at the court" (læst på Thinge) -from ca. 1200 to ca.    1600 -  so everyone knows that the property now belongs to another person and that the trade is legal. Also so the autorities/administration know whom is going to pay tax of the property or its crops and animals. Up to about 1600 the reading was oral but later on it was written down.

The autorities and administration had to be more accurate to administrate all those trades, so the king decided that buying and selling of properties should be "read" on the 3 Landsting -to day high court - which both had the criminal court and the property trade and dealt with similary aspects ex. executions, auctions, property exchange conc. død (skifter) etc.  The 3 landsting (there was 5 ) Viborg landsting, Sjællandsfar Landsting,Fynsfar landsting, Bornholms landsting and Lolland-Falster  Landsting.

So there were no problems or disputes with the deeds, but for mannors and big farms people should go to the Landsting instead of the Byting or herredsting. And when a nobleman sold his properties it should be noted at the Landsting- even if we see that noblemen now and then prefer to round or bypass the Landsting, especially when they themselves could held a court or be a judge - and thats often a problem for us genealogists. 

The noblemen often had lack of money, so they pledge pawns on the land and the mortgage also should be noted at the court so others knew that the land was mortgaged - (hoping thats the right word!) - at that time we didn't have any bonds or paper securities/evidences of properties.  And the bank system was not developed, so one lended money from each others.

So you see thats the reason the nobleman and other had to make jordebøger are also they are proofs of the trade. Also they had to write the tennants (farmers) name, and how big -in area -the farm is, because the farmers were not free they belonged to the noblemen, that is the buyer also got the farmer when he bought the land......


About Peters age, we have earlier talked about Peter got married with the Klein girl because she was pregnant with Olle Krabbe or with Ole Krabbes son, and that it was an arranged marriage, his age could be a hint in that direction. Also Peter he had to serve as soldier at least 8 years, he made a contract for that - and very very often the soldiers renewed their contract after the first 8 years.
Probably Peter was a hired rider- which was the most used in that period - and the soldier didn't get any payment when he was not on duty or in war, so therefore the king often send regiments etc abroad so they could serve another king who was in war.
The hired soldiers often came from Germany and Holland sometimes France, and the hiremen caught or persuaded men which looked fresh, strong and tall- or was god on a horse etc.- they could be 15 years or 30 years, -
Because of the small payment and the missing wages when in peace the" aftakkede" soldiers were very poor. Often they could not find any job when finished the soldiers life, that's also a reason for renew the contract.  Also they hadn't any place to live (house,room) If a soldier had been educated as a craftsman in the army, he could also work as such, when he stopped, but the craftsmen and their Lodges forbad any craftsman who was not educated by them in the cities- so he only had a real change if he went to the countrysides. There are descriptions and drawings from that time which shows what a problem "aftakkede" soldiers were in the cities and how poor they where, often they were handicapped too and many of them had families. So Ole Krabbe did a good job to hire them as tennants in his villages and land. 

I send you a little pamflet -in danish - but I am sure it is of some interrest, even if it is for school children. I think you could get it google translated because the language is not so difficult.

https://www.fredericiahistorie.dk/sites/fredericiahistorie.subsites.fredericia.dk/files/soldat_i_1600-tallet.pdf

venlig hilsen
Grethe

[Jan Suhr]

Hej Jan Suhr. This is quite interesting to me. I'm not a Suhr, but through Y-DNA I'm connected to people from Mecklenburg, and further back to families who turned up in the British Isles. My haplo group is I-FT195415. Tested by FTDNA BigY-700. Would you be kind enough to reveal your haplo group. And yes ... it would be great if more people will use the tool of DNA in genealogy. A wonderful thing to do, now that Covid19 restricts our usual social activities.

Hej Niels,

Sorry for the late answer

My haplogroup is R1b-U152->L2->FGC22501->FGC22516->FGC23321