Markgreves regiment, kaptajn Wilsteds kompagni i Rensburg, 1741

[Grethe Leerbech]

Hi again Lisa

I have looked a litlle more in the book, and find, that when a boy is dead he mostly writes "dreng" and when a girl dies he mostly writes "barn" -
i hope it would be one of Kirsten and Peders children-not one of Hendrick and Kirstens boys.

[Grethe Leerbech]

Dear Lisa

You have to find the estate exchange (skifte) from either Hendrich or Kirsten.
I know you have looked for it in Nysted archives without succes.
As a tolder I beleive, that the "skifte" should take place under the Kings administration, but where to find it I wonder. But of course there is one. Did Kirsten die in Nysted?

Try to ask here about, where to find a Tolders -royal administrators estate exchange (What is the correct word for it, I cannot find it on the net!)

Also I am a little worried, that the child could be Peter, because writing "child" also often means minor or baby, but in the regnskabsbog its not often written daughter  - but it could also be Simon and earlier I wote to you that he had become 2 daughters by name Ide!  I can't remember why
vh
Grethe

[Grethe Leerbech]

Also Lisa I wonder if he or they have done testaments, where are they archieved?

[Lisa Petersen]

Hej Grethe

It is very interesting that you noticed 'barn' means the death of a girl in these records.  I will keep that in mind as I look further. 

There are so many things to look for now.  I want to look for marriage and children of Peder Ibsen & Kirsten Jacobsdatter (1662-1671).  Also skifter for H.S., Barbara, Kirsten, and Peder Ibsen.  There should be probate records for Barbara and Peder because they had young children, but H.S. and Kirsten maybe not.  It would be nice to find them.  Could the testamenter be in the Sjællandske Register?  I have been looking there for something else and can try looking for wills.  I want to find the births of Barbara Simonsdatter and Kirsten Jacobsdatter, if they exist that early.  I don't know Kirsten Jacobsdatter's parents' names.

Today I am looking at all the kirkeregnskaber at least until 1710 when Kirsten Jacobsdatter died (buried on 11 July 1710).  I did find that H.S. got a seat for his wives in the church.  I think I found the death of the son Simon, buried on 19 May 1671.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-894D-78RX?i=362&cc=2078555&cat=369664

I know of 7 children born to H.S., all in Nysted
first wife Barbara Simonsdatter, buried 14 Apr 1671 in Nysted
  Friederich, bapt 19 Aug 1668
  Sophie Amalie, bapt 16 Jan 1670, married Christopher Hansen Løsholt and Nicolaj Thams, died after 1708
  Simon, bapt 2 Apr 1671, buried 19 May 1671 in Nysted
second wife Kirsten Jacobsdatter, buried 11 Jul 1710 in Nysted
  Peder, bapt 23 Jul 1673
  Barbara, bapt 14 Aug 1674, married Thomas Weymar, died after 1708
  Ide-Øllegaard, bapt 8 Oct 1676, buried 24 April 1677
  Ide-Øllegaard, bapt 16 Jun 1678, married Johan Hansen, died after 1704

The daughters Sophie Amalie, Barbara and Ide-Øllegaard were very active in the church, often were sponsors for others' children.  I have not found their deaths.  I know they died after 1704 and 1708 because those are the last times they were mentioned in the baptisms as sponsors for others' children.

Okay I'm going to look more in the kirkeregnskaber.  Lucky they are easy to read!

mvh
Lisa P.

[Ole Westermann]

That a 'barn' (child) should mean girl is to me a mistake - it can be a boy or a girl.

mvh Ole

[Grethe Leerbech]

Hej Ole og Lisa

You are right, but when I look and compare with the churchbook, then in regnskabsbogen it's often written boy when it is a boy in the churchbook, and "barn" when it is a girl or a baby (very young one)-therefore my conclusion -but of course it doesn't count normally. 

Lollandsfar landsting, is probably  where a testamente would be registered, it goes from 1665-75= landstingsbog, Justitsprotokol 1697-1805 , and I have read that many of the archivals from there are situated in Viborg landsting.
I mean if there is a testamente it must have been done between 1673 and 1700 (1707), and then one has to find it the day or month/year it is written and confirmed.
But of course a testamente could also be archieved at Nysted court. But as I understand Lisa, you haven't had any succes finding any clue of a "skifte"

If I am wrong. then correct me
Grethe 


Lisa. Did you not forget Johan born in 1676

[Lisa Petersen]

Hej Grethe

I tried to look for probates for H.S. and wife Kirsten Jacobsdatter, but did not find them.  Now I don't remember if I found the records of the right time and place where their probates should have been kept.  They may not have probates because their children were old when they died.  I have not yet looked for their wills, if they had any.  I don't think I ever looked for a probate or will for Barbara Simonsdatter.  The H.S. and K.J. probates are more important because they might contain the residences of the children in 1707 and 1710.

I do not have a child Johan born in 1676.  Who was he?

Regarding 'barn' in the regnskaber, it would be easiest to write 'barn' in every case when burying a child.  We wish they would write 'søn' or 'datter.'  I did see 'datter' written once, never 'son.'  I would normally think if 'dreng' or 'pige' were written, it would mean servant boy or servant girl, not son or daughter. 

I finished looking at the kirkeregnskaber until 1710 and found some useful information, the death of Christopher Hansen Løsholt for example.  Next I'm not sure what I will look for.  There are so many things! 

Lisa P.

[Niels Bach-Lauritsen]

Hej Jan Suhr. This is quite interesting to me. I'm not a Suhr, but through Y-DNA I'm connected to people from Mecklenburg, and further back to families who turned up in the British Isles. My haplo group is I-FT195415. Tested by FTDNA BigY-700. Would you be kind enough to reveal your haplo group. And yes ... it would be great if more people will use the tool of DNA in genealogy. A wonderful thing to do, now that Covid19 restricts our usual social activities.

[Grethe Leerbech]

Hi Lisa
You are right, there are no Johan, I couldn't read it the first time, it is the first Ide Øllegård I mistoke for johan (opslag 165) . The last sentence in that baptisme stand something curious, I get it to: "hans stiffefader Michel Povlss(en)"  , does that mans Hendrichs stiffader.
Also about Ides Øllegaardsdead, did you find payment for her in the regnskaber? Or could it be her dead when you thought it could be Peter?

[Grethe Leerbech]

I've also looked in the regnskabsbøger again about the child dead in 1673. It says in opslag 66.

1673 30Dito (11 november) Begrefven Hindrich Schullermands barn
udi Kirchen hoes Sl. Peder Ibsen  7Rd-2 M

Buried H.S. child in the church atblessed Peder Ibsen (burial place/coffin) !
Also I might find that the price indicates, that it is both Peter Ibsen and a child which are buried-but thats only a hint. Can't find Peter Ibsens burial in regnskabsbøger, therefore! 

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-894D-78BK?i=65&wc=M5KY-PTB%3A357518001%2C358297701%2C


Why should Hindrich bury his child in Peter Ibsens burial place/coffin?
When the first ide øllegard is dead (opslag 84) she is not buried there and he pays 2 mark for that .

[Ole Westermann]

I wrote 23 Okt 15:37
Peder Ibsen, alderman (Raadmand) in Nysted was buried 5 days after Barbara Simonsdatter inside the church in Nysted.
HS and PI's widow Kirsten Jacobsdatter prob. got married in 1672, as they had their son Peder baptized July 23, 1673 (im.150).
But this Peder is prob. buried in the church next to Peder Ibsen on Nov. 30 same year (im.66 - regnskaber)

This child Peder was named after his mothers late husband Peder Ibsen, and therefore it was a natural thing to bury him next to Peder Ibsen.

mvh Ole

[Lisa Petersen]

Hej Grethe (and Ole)

Regarding the child of H.S. that was buried with Peder Ibsön, I hope that it was P.I.'s child and H.S. was paying for the burial, now that he was married the widow Kirsten Jacobsdatter.  I still need to look for children born to Peder Ibsön from 1663 to 1671 to see if that is a possibility.  I am going to be very disappointed if the dead child was Peder, son of H.S., bapt. on 23 Jul 1673 in Nysted.

Ole found Peder Ibsön's burial 5 days after Barbara Simonsdatter, on 19 April 1671.  15 Rd was paid for his burial, more than H.S. or any family member of H.S.  See top of right page of ops 52
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-894D-78RX?i=51&cc=2078555&cat=369664

I did find the burial of the first Ide-Øllegaard, on 24 April 1677, 1rd 2mk 9sk was paid.  Here it says 'datter.'  On left page of ops 84
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QSQ-G94D-7DCC?i=83&cc=2078555&cat=369664

In the birth of the first Ide-Øllegaard, I think it says  (Ole can correct my mistakes)
1676 Dominica XX. Trinitatis, Faddere til Hendrich Sküllermandtz daatter Ide=Øllegaard. Gunder Gunderßön Ride fogit hos Vend Ampted, Wolrat Wilhelm Raadmand her i bÿen, Skriffuerens Quinde paa Haldsted=Closter bar hende, Tholderens Quinde aff Röedbÿ, Elße Jenßdaatter, hoes Sin Stifffader Michel Thovlß.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-894W-68D9?i=166&cc=2078555&cat=369664

I think Michel Thovlß is Elße Jenßdaatter's stepfather.

Thanks for all the help, I appreciate it!

Lisa P.

[Ole Westermann]

Hej Lisa

A few changes:
1676 Dominica XX. Trinitatis
Faddere til Hendrich Sküllermandtz daatter Ide=Øllegaard.
Gunder Gunderßön Ride fogit her veed Ampted, Wolrat
Wilhelm Raadmand her i byen, Skriffuerens Quinde paa Hald-
sted-Closter bar hende, Tholderens Quinde aff Röedby, Elße
Jenßdaatter, hoes Sin Stifffader Michel Throlssen.

I agree that Michel Troelsen is the stepfather of EJ.

And I understand your disappointment about HS's son Peder, who seems to have died.

mvh Ole

[Lisa Petersen]

Thank you, Ole, for the corrections.

I did not find a child born to Peder Ibsen, baptized in Nysted, from 1663 to 1672.  Peder Ibsen and his wife Kirsten Jacobsdatter were there in Nysted, and were sponsors of others' children during those years.  Seems a little strange, a new marriage and no children.  I also did not find Peder Ibsen paying for the burial of a child, in Nysted kirkeregnskaber 1663-1672.

This is not good news.  It does make finding probates more important.

Lisa P.

[Ole Westermann]

I have also looked for possible probates - I don't think they exist anymore.

[Lisa Petersen]

Thank you, Ole, for trying to find probates.  It is a shame the records are not extant, but not surprising.

I did find some information about Simon Schuster, including a death date, 5 Aug 1666.  That is also too early for probates, and maybe even too early for burial records in the KB.

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=18484342#236931,45098393

I suppose that it is possible that H.S. in Nysted had a cousin somewhere, also named H.S., who had a son Peder, born before 1675.   

I think I will try to find new information about Peder Schöllerman, who lived in Åle sogn (Skanderborg Rytterdistrikt), from 1719 to 1733.  I have nothing about him before the 1719 fæste that you found in Bjerre Gods.  Perhaps he is in the Skanderborg Rytterdistrikt tingbøger.

Many thanks!

Lisa P.

[Grethe Leerbech]

Hej Lisa
yes that's sad, but maybe you find something else about peter.

I've just seen this on the net, thought it could be of interest.

http://www.bbeim.dk/28510525

[Lisa Petersen]

Hej Grethe

Thanks for the link.  That Hans Christopher Schøllermann was a son of the Peder Henrich Schøllermann & Anne Margrethe Sørensdatter in Åle.  I followed him and found good information.  I also followed his 4 brothers, but had no luck with the 3 sisters after their births in Åle.  I should work on the girls.  So many things to look for, and of course, life, pandemics and politics sometimes get in the way.

Lisa P.

[Ole Westermann]

I also skimmed the Tingbog/justitsprotokol 1695-1709 in Nysted - they sometimes contain info about probates -
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-P3FW-J9T6?mode=g&cat=418136
around the death of HS in 1707 - found nothing.

[Lisa Petersen]

Thank you, Ole, for looking in the Nysted tingbog for something about H.S.'s probate. 

Familysearch also has old tingbøger for Musse herred and Maribo amt.  Would there be cases (not just mentions of probates) in those records involving people from Nysted?  I will look, if there is hope.

Thanks,
Lisa P.

[Grethe Leerbech]

Just went home from a little holiday to RØMØ, looking for birds immigration- Enjoyed it  very much with the close family.

Found this :
"Sjællandske tegnelser, 1672-74 opslag 479 nr. 18
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/billedviser?bsid=268372#268372,50726124

Hendrich Skyllermann Ridefoged paa Ålholm Contra Landsdommer udi Lolland (no name of the landsdommer) 7.6. 1673.

So there must have been a case  I can see - no. 283 (former page) it is about some subpoena , which Peter Leeds (something I cannot read) has to take care of.


(also opslag 471, 472, but i think they are his appointments to either Tolder or ridefoged!

[Grethe Leerbech]

Here is the subpoena, Hoping you can get help to understand the meaning. I think it is something about, that employed by the queen Hendrich have the same rights and obligations as if he is employd by the King. But I hope you will get a better translate of this because I am not sure, Why should he be summonded only to affirm he has the same rights and duties as if he was employed under the King. The case is against some farmers I presume. I think the case has number 316 in justitsbook.

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=21722478#414956,76430098

hilsen Grethe

[Grethe Leerbech]

here is the judgement  , it says Freiløff leyere in Lolland, freiløss is the name of a place, and leyere means tennants .
Its about the tennants privilegiums , but the case is long with many dscriptions etc.

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=21606274#403523,74664957

[Ole Westermann]

In summary:
It's a fight between the farmowners i Frejlev and the Queen Mother represented by the ridefoged HS about the right of felling etc in the local forests - a right they have had for 140 years - and the final decision from the High Court is in favour of the farmowners.

mvh Ole

[Grethe Leerbech]

Dear Lisa and Ole

I have looked through Lollandsfar landsting, probates and mortgages from 1673-1714 but have not found anything about H. S. There are many probates in this protocol also probates from the other custum officers in Lolland-falster. Also I found Suhrs probate (skifte) here.
It puzzles me, that HS didn't buy his house in Nysted. Did he rent it, or did he live in a house owned by the king?.
I mean the most normal would be to buy ones own estate  and as a costums officer he is among the wealthier in the town and region.

But his confirmation of becomming a costum officer is in the skøde- og panteprotokoller also with the tolder Simonsen (which probate is in the same protocol when he dies) -but I think you have found this
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17134261#270929,51530868

When one buy estates, farms, houses one have to get it confirmed by the court and also to get the deed  - so he should have been in the Lollandsfars landsting, Skøde- og panteprotokoller.
I do not know if he could be in Sjællandsfars instead- but why should he, would there be any reasons for that.
There are no registers for Lollandsfars, Skøde og panteprot.

[Lisa Petersen]

Hej Grethe (& Ole)

Thanks for finding the 1673 case in the Sjællandske tegnelser involving ridefoged H.S.  I have not looked at that source before but will give it a try.  H.S. was mentioned in the Nysted KB as ridefoged from 1667 to 1673, but I have not found his appointment.

Thanks for looking in the Lolland Falsters landsting for probates and mortgages.  I will look at that too (for H.S. and others in his family).  The first book of skøde- og panteprotokoller 1673-1684 is not indexed, but the others are.  Thanks for the link to his appointment as tolder, if that is what it is.  The date of his appointment was 8 Jan 1680, but have not found the record of it (probably because it is not online).

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=18484342#236931,45098593

The landsting also has justitsprotokoller.  I should look at those, too.

The visit to Rømø sounds very nice.  Is Rømø a little more wild and less touristy than Fanø?  I have only been to Fanø.

Thanks you Grethe!

Lisa P.

[Grethe Leerbech]

Hey Lisa

Yes it is HS appointment from 1680 i have given you a link to, it also tells what kind of works he should do, and reports, accounts etc.

About his house , he has bought it before 1668, where we from a case from the court can se he allready had a house in Nysted, The case from his childs baptism where he got in trouble with the musicans.
And the Probate and mortgages protocols start first in 1673 , so i do't think it's possible to find the buying of the house. But at least we can confirm he didn't live at Ålholm castle when he was a ridefoged. And he might have kept the same house all through his life.
It is openlky very difficult to find the link between HS in Nysted and PS in Åle. Only the names can give us a hint, but not a prove. Skøllermand is seldom in denmark and the name Henrik also not so common and Peder calls himself Peder Henrik Skøllermand and also Peder Henriksen Skøllermand and Henrik Skøllermand. Also the elder Krabbe had estates in Lolland, but there have not been any hints. But of course no data has occured

HS figures in the following magasins:
Lolland-Falsters historiske samfunds årbøger 1911 page 276 and 1914 page 116,
Personalehistorisk tidsskrift 1945 side 236

But I don't know if it is only his name, occupation, marriage and children which is mentioned. Is we could find something in Musse herred, maybe .......
Greetings Grethe

[Grethe Leerbech]

About Rømø - yeas it is lesser turisty than Fanø, and for birdwatchers it is the best Island, because there are 3 nationalparks on the island and also the road to the island (you don't sail over there there is a 5 km long "dæmning ". And there are more woodland also.

Ill give you some informations about Costums history in denmark here.

First a map of nysted from 1677

https://images.app.goo.gl/kqiKZdQMkjyzSbBGA

https://nysted.dk/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/%C3%85lholm-01.jpg

Then something about accisebod.

http://www.kulturarv.dk/1001fortaellinger/da_DK/acciseboden

It is possible that HS has lived at the accisebod near the mole where the ships are at Resens picture on the left side . The 2 house at the right side could the warehouses. It has no. 8. You will also find a similar house at no. 17 which could also be a accisebo at the road intrance to the town.  Nysted had at that time a big trade through ships. 

The first common and assembled costums rule called "Ordinansen" came in 1632it contented rules and regulations about accounts,  supervisning rules, reports and costums charge etc. Every Costums place should have 2 royal emplyed a costumer and a costumswriter (skriver) they should read and write and also know some language french or german.  In Nysted the first latin school was from about 1578 but also an rytterskole (riderschool) was present in the sogn. But we don't know if HS is born in Nysted.

In 1651 came the "Toldrullen" where among other im- and exportcharge was introduced, but because of the poverty in the country it was revised in 1672 and 1683 where it was forbidden to both im- and export certain wares (luxery things and also to protect domestic goods. 
Consumtion was introduced in 1657 and 1660 but reapealed in 1662-1671 and reintroduced in 1671 and 1688 where also the domestic goods were to be charged when they entered the cities and towns. such as corns, meat, drinks (Vine,beers) malt for beer and grinding the corns would also be charged.

In 1660 it became the stiftamtsmanden who had the overview with the costums and the archieves we find there. But accounts and reports we find af Rentekammerets renteskriverkontor from 1679 for the different counties( regioner og amter)
In Rigsarkivets samlinger, Regnskaber 1539-1660 og 1660-1898 one finds the accounts and reports .

But as The towns often leased the costums to get some parts of the income instead of sending the whole to the king, one are able to find many archives at the magistrats in the towns , rådmandsprotocols and it starts often from 1688,
In the rentekammerets archiev over Costums one will find informations about buildings, payments, problems, shipregister, and citygates charges etc. But one can also find them in stiftamtmandsens protocols.

Hoping you will find that a little interesting, i did.

Greetings Grethe

[Lisa Petersen]

Hej Grethe (and others)

Thanks for the information on customs history.  The old maps are so interesting.  It would make sense that H.S. would live in a house near the port. 

I have put my Schøllermand families online, with all the sources and links.  If you have some free time, take a look, starting with Peder from Åle, and let me know if there are other sources I haven't seen.

http://www.kinquest.com/Schoellermand/ps03/ps03_027.html

Thanks for all your help along the way.

Lisa P.

[Grethe Leerbech]

Here is a little more about Hendrich Schøllermand.
Its the matrikelkort from 1688. and the markbøger(fieldbooks)  from same year.
markbøger are the working documents, were one can see what differents fields the owner or "fæster" has and Matrikel is the result of the work
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=21658914#408359,75702428

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/billedviser?bsid=126163#126163,19008825
In Matrikel Hendrich is no. 4 -the last one - and you can see he has about 4 tønder land
In the markbøger you will find he's land is spread a little, he owns land in sønder mark, mellemmark, Nørre mark and closter mark- they lay north of the town .
And if we look closer in the markbøger, one finds, that he doesn't live in the midst of the town - that is he has not a townhouse, so probably it's the house at near the habour in Resens map. 
Unfortunately we don't have a matrikel from the beginning of 1700, soI I could see where the Schøllermans live in Bjerre/Åle and in Bække.
but i will try to see if i can find something else.

But i have looked through- very excactly- the churchbook in Åle, and I am certain that Anna Margrethe Sørensdatter Klein is Peder Schøllermans wife. The sergeant is called Peter or Clemend Terkeldsen . But I don't know where you found that she is called Sørensdatter too?

I will once more try to get the word from the baptism of Peder and Annas daughter Mette Frederica (opslag 10 in Åle) The word which we have tried to settle as Cadsierer (Kasserer) bookkeeper. because I am not satisfied with that. Hoping one of the very keen people will look at it.  Also you write that by peders dead it is said he is a rytter???

I can see that Peders nearest friends or entourage (I don't know the word in english) are following.

Jens Thomsen the degn (the schoolteacher and churchhelper),also called Jens degn
Jens Christensen, is the person who Anna Margrete Klein and Peder mostly participate in the baptisms and Anna mostly caries the child. his job is not mentioned
The gartner Hans  Jørgensen for the ålholm castle
Jørgen Ladefoged and maybe also Søren Ladefoged- both in Ålholm castle
Christen and Mette Møller- the Millers 
Oluf Pedersen- i think he is a farmer but not sure.
Søren Sørensen-could be Annas brother
Rasmus Nielsen
Jens Wæring
Budde Nielsen (could be Rasmus Nielsen) and Lauritz Mickelsen

so through that one can read that Peder doesn't belong to the upper circles but the (upper-)ddle ones. And it is naturally he meets with the schoolteacher, the miller and the 2 ladefogeder and the gartner 
Also we can see that the lord and his family they often figures as father at the baptism of the upper and upper-middleclasses citizens, also that they often call their children after the lords family names. Reading the namegiving at that times, it's easely to see if it's farmers or citizens who namegives their children.Farmers often uses one name which is a name from the nearest family, fathers, mothers, father or mother in law etc.