Jørgen Jensen, f. ca. 1766-død 1848 i Rugbjerg, Hjørring Amt.

[Cyndilou]

Karin,
Thank you for the extra tips on the areas my ancestors are from.  
The links didn't work for me but I think I figured out google maps.

A little more info I found on this family:

http://ao.salldata.dk/vis1.php?bsid=170607&side=99

confirmed April 6 1755
#5 under 1755 is Jens Nielsen SORT.  Now we know for sure that the Jens Nielsen, father of the 4 boys we've been following, was the one born in 1838 in Tornby.  
Jens Nielsen Sort was baptized Dom 1 p. Trin 1738, the 1st Sunday after Trinity 1738 - June 8, 1738.


ALSO  http://ao.salldata.dk/vis1.php?bsid=170607&side=99

under 1758 is his wife Ingierd Nielsdatter, baptized Palm Sunday 1743 - April 7, 1743.


and then I'm pretty sure I have Peder's 2nd wife's death
https://www.danishfamilysearch.com/.../churchl.../opslag14685226
but it is confusing.  Jensen is crossed out and replaced by Christensen's

given that in the 1845 census Peder now shows up as a widow

and because of the record of their son Christen Pedersen being born to Peder Jensen and Maren Jensdatter
http://ao.salldata.dk/vis1.php?bsid=166795&side=57

and because Sortfelt is in this death record....I'm pretty sure this is her.  
would you have any idea why Jensen would be crossed out?  

So grateful,
cyndi

[Cyndilou]

Karin,
sorry, the questions just keep coming

How do I find this actual probate record? 

The family members are listed in the probate records:
Karen Jensdatter died 1760
08.01.1761 Karen Jensdatter i Tornby, død 08.11.1760 Fol. 142b
  Niels Michelsen
  Arvinger: Enkemanden [Heirs: the widower
  Børn: Jens Nielsen, 22 år [children]
        Anne Nielsdatter, 21 år
        Maren Nielsdatter, 20 år
        Michel Nielsen, 13 år
        Johanne Nielsdatter, 13 år
        Peder Nielsen, 9 år

Thank you,
Cyndi

[Cyndilou]

Karin,

our facebook friends found the actual probate for Karen Jensdatter.  8)

Wife of Niels Michelsen
and mother of Jens Nielsen, father of the 4 Jensen boys

it is about 3 pages long.  
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?bsid=193002#193002,32357428

can you tell me what the large headings are that begin on the second page?  
and what the 3 different columns with #'s are?

thank you
Cyndi

[Karin Andersen]

Hi Cindi

The large headings in the probate are the names for the different areas in the home.

I Daglig Stuen = dagligstue =livingroom.

Paa et Senge Sted = On a sleeping place (probably an alkove)
https://www.google.com/search?q=alkove&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=Wf30esvkU-00jM%253A%252Cr0TYlMA_G4-tYM%252C_&usg=__q7x7bZo0ZsUkEFX6ZZf8ShyLnjQ%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjA58Wo_6bbAhVDWiwKHS-NDkUQ9QEIKDAA&biw=1600&bih=751#imgrc=Wf30esvkU-00jM:

Ude deres Anden Stue = In their other living room.

Ude et Liige(?) Sengested = also an Alkove.

I buret = small room for food storage.

I kiöckenet og Brögerset = Kitchens (Bryggers = kitchen where you do the "dirtier" kitchen work.

i Gaarden = in the yard.

Boster = (I non´t know this danish word) Probably the stabel as two black horses are mentioned.

Faar Creathur = Sheep creatures.

Svin=Swine

I think the priest made a mistake when he crossed her name out and called her Christensdatter.

Kind Regards 

Karin

[Cyndilou]

Karin,
interesting.  So in the probates for some people they list every little thing throughout their home while others don't have a probate at all? 


Thanks for teaching me,
Cyndi

[Cyndilou]

for the record I'm attaching 4 .doc files.  One of each of the brothers.  
I have most everything on them.  
I will have to upload them one at a time.
This first one is Jorgen

thanks to all who have helped in putting this family together.  

Cyndi

[Cyndilou]

attaching .doc file on Niels

[Cyndilou]

attaching .doc file on Michel

[Cyndilou]

attaching .doc file on Peder

[Cyndilou]

Karin,
I just wanted your thoughts on this...

I believe we may already have these probates listed in this post but I learned some new information from them today.
someone read the probate for Søren Christensen Krag and noted that

"Jørgen Jensen took over the 'faeste' by promising to marry the widow Kirsten Michelsdatter's unmarried daughter, Kirsten Sørensdatter."

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/billedviser?bsid=193002#193002,32357605

Interesting. 
Was he interested in her or was that just a requirement for him to take over the land lease? 
was this like an arranged marriage?

how does this fit in with what you found in the Land records? 
I thought Jorgen would have been taking care of the land HIS father had, but it looks like he took on his father in law's lease instead.  (maybe the two other boys, Niels and Michel, who stayed in Skibsbye/Hjorring kept their father's lease, which if I remember right, had something to do with Fugslig.)

Can we use the main house records you told me about to find out about Søren Christensen Krag and this lease talked about in his probate? 

If I remember right you found something where the two brothers went back to rebuilt Sortfelt? 

Looks like jørgen took over for his father in law in 1792 (date of the probate) then moved to Rubjerg around 1802/1803.  Would he have done something to lose the lease he inherited?  Or was the Main House owner just transferring him to a new location that he also owned?

Would there be some connection to his mother in law dying that opened the way for him to move? 
According to the probate or Søren Christensen Krag, he was to provide for his mother in law.
He moved to Rubjerg a couple of years after his mother in law died.   

I believe we already have this probate but to keep it with this info I'm posting again.
1801 Kirstin's probate:
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/billedviser?bsid=193003#193003,32357685


After I put together all I have on Jens Nielsen, Jørgen's father, I think I will start another post searching for his death record and hopefully a probate for him and see if that might lead us to more information. 
Jens Nielsen born 1738 in Tornby.  Still in Tornby in 1801. 

or by the way.  here is some more information on the Jens Nielsen (is this the one in your family line?)
that married Kirsten Michelsdatter after their spouses died.  Maybe you already have this but in case you don't:
After his 2nd wife Kirsten Michelsdatter died, looks like he probably married again, a Johanne Jensdatter, Oct 10 1801:

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?bsid=164083#164083,27548471
And Jens Nielsen died in 1803. The probate shows that he had no children, so his siblings or their children inherited him together with the widow, Johanne Jensdatter:

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/billedviser?bsid=193003#193003,32357696

Cyndi

[Karin Andersen]

"Hi Cindi  

Thank you for sharing your findings. I have a copy of them now. The attachments onthis site will unfortunately only stay for a short period.

I´ll try to answer some of your questions but some of them your guessing is just as good as mine.

Citat:
"Jørgen Jensen took over the 'faeste' by promising to marry the widow Kirsten Michelsdatter's unmarried daughter, Kirsten Sørensdatter."
and
Was he interested in her or was that just a requirement for him to take over the land lease?  
was this like an arranged marriage?"

Well. Good questions.
We will never know how they felt about each other. Jørgen not being the eldest son might have caused him and the family to look elsewhere for a fæste for him, if the fæste his father had was not good enough to provide for multiple families, and it probably wasn´t.
When a man with a fæste died, it was important to find a  man who could take over and do the hard labour in the fields. We lost the knowledge of how they was doing it. The people at the main house might have known both parties and introduced them to each other but we don´t know. It was like an arranged marriage and it was quite common. You can find a lot of examples of an elderly widows marrying a lot younger guy. Sometimes they would be somehow related and it was a way to keep a good fæste "in the family".

Citat:
"Can we use the main house records you told me about to find out about Søren Christensen Krag and this lease talked about in his probate?"
Yes, you might be able to find something in the main house record. I don´t remember how far back the books from Fuglsig goes.

Citat:
"Looks like Jørgen took over for his father in law in 1792 (date of the probate) then moved to Rubjerg around 1802/1803.  Would he have done something to lose the lease he inherited?  Or was the Main House owner just transferring him to a new location that he also owned"

and

Citat:
"Would he have done something to lose the lease he inherited?  Or was the Main House owner just transferring him to a new location that he also owned?"

We can´t know. It was a time when a lot of main houses switched or sold their land. If that was the case, the main house can have transferred him to the other fæste but we will never know.

I have been looking into my relative. He is a Mickel Nielsen Sommerdal, but he arrives at Skibsby about 1825 so he is not the same who is a witness to a marriage.

Kind Regards  

Karin

PS. Have you noticed you actually have Jørgen Jensens signature?
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/billedviser?bsid=193002#193002,32357607

[Cyndilou]

Karin,

The attachments on this site will unfortunately only stay for a short period.

will we just lose the attachments or will this whole thread be deleted eventually? 

Thank you for pointing out Jørgen's signature.

I was looking closer at the document.  Does Jørgen's signature finish off the document or does it continue to the next page? 
On the next page I notice Aalborg, 13 (a couple of times) Fuglsig, and 30.  If this is still part of the same probate can you tell me a little of what is being said there? 

Thanks for all your help.  I wouldn't have as much as I do if it weren't for you sticking with me  

Cyndi

[Karin Andersen]

Hi Cindi. 

You are welcome. 

This thread will stay "for ever", only the attachments will disappear.

The probate first tells the usual stuff. Mai 19th. 1792 was 30 days after Søren Christensen Krag i Skibsby, husfæster (fæster of house) of Fuglsig Gods died.

The top of the next page is hard to read but it would typically mention who the Person left behind and who would be the guard for the widow, the daughters and under age children. Here I can see Maren Sørensdatter married to Niels Pedersen i Trædholt in Bjergby parish mentioned. Kirsten Sørensdatter  who is going to  marry Jørgen Jensen Husfæster i Skibsby. The guardian is Christen Nielsen Boelsmand in Skibsby. Christen Sørensen og Christen Christen helped the court make sure everything was valued and in order and shared after the law.

As far as I can see Kirsten does not want anything concerning the fæste as it goes to her daughter and Jørgen Jensen. So it doesn´t mention the stuff in the house as we saw in the last probate we looked at.

However here we get some other infos as it is written down, that should she want to remarry, she would have to leave the house and also that she would be entitled to get a good cow, a sheep, her bed and a red skin coffin, a nice set of clothes (usually the clothes she used when going to church) along with her. It also gives directions on how Kirsten and Jørgen should behave towards each other.

Actually you also have Kirsten Michelsdatters signature. The probate ends with Jørgens signature + the two lines below.

Kind Regards 

Karin

[Cyndilou]

Thank you Karin   

[Cyndilou]

Karin,

would you mind looking at this probate for Peder's wife Anne Marie Poulsdatter?  

we can't find her death record but another friend did find this probate.  

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/billedviser?bsid=193623#193623,32457334

Does it document her death date or just when the probate began? 
Is there only one son mentioned?  
Is there any information in this to help with understanding this family better?  

and can you tell me where the probate ends?  

I see mention of a Jorgen Jensen in a couple of places on this page.  If it is still part of her probate, is this Peder's brother being mentioned?  
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/billedviser?bsid=193623#193623,32457337

thanks so much,
Cyndi

[Karin Andersen]

Hi Cindi 

The probate is started November 28th. 1870. After the rules she would have been dead 30 days before. She must have died October 28th.


The couple had this one son Jens Pedersen.

Next page. https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/billedviser?bsid=193623#193623,32457335
As far as I can see it doesn´t belong to the probate. (The page is the same as the prevoius but covered with a piece of paper)

The probate lists what she left behind to her husband and son and also what she owed to her son and Kirsten Thomasdatter i Rubjerg. From the estate her husband will get the money back he had spend for her funeral before sharing.


Jørgen Jensen is mentioned along with the others because they appear in court, Jørgen as a guardian for the son Jens, who was under age. It tells that Jens Paaskesen is married to Anne Maries sister. I don´t know if you knew already?

The probate ends after the signatures, and the date below, Februarii 20th. 1811, must be the date the probate was ended in court.
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/billedviser?bsid=193623#193623,32457337

Kind Regards 

Karin

Karin

[Cyndilou]

once again, thank you 

I did not know about Anne Marie Poulsdatter's sister.  Thank you

I sure with there wasn't such a far break between censuses 1801 - 1834
I did find this on her sister:

INGER Poulsdatter found in 1801 and 1834: 
1801 jens and Inger are single working in the same household - https://www.danishfamilysearch.com/cid1518982
and in 1834 they are married https://www.danishfamilysearch.com/cid3160567


Cyndi

[Karin Andersen]

Hi Cindi 

A correction. I wrote: "The probate is started November 28th. 1870". It is of cause 1810.

Kind Regards 

Karin