Jørgen Jensen, f. ca. 1766-død 1848 i Rugbjerg, Hjørring Amt.

[Karin Andersen]

Hi Cindi 

You are welcome.

I found this new link that might help me figuring out those "lægdsruller" (military rolls) https://lægdsruller.dk/# It is in Danish, but play around with it and I guess it will help you too.

I´ll try to answer some of the questions you asked Britta.

If you use the link below you find a menu (with the black background), choose find sogn - by (city)
https://lægdsruller.dk/#

Vælg sogn eller købsted = choose parish or city
Vælg år  (choose year)

About the roll you can´t find for 1792, it shows that no digitalized roll is found. If you choose another of the years we have been looking into, you´ll find a note about the timeframe the roll was written.

You asked:

1798
Jorgen 31 (what is the word that is not crossed out - between his name and age?)
It is Thornby = Tornby

Is that Niels right below Jorgen crossed out (104/85)?  If Yes can you tell me what all the notes say?
It is Niels mentioned here. My eyes are not good enough to read these notes, but I can see he is taken out of the roll after request.

and again, where are Mikkel and Peder?
Peder was already requested out of the roll in 1793, so he is still not available for the military in 1798. Mikkel I don´t know about yet.

About the ages of the brothers you must note that I didn´t find any informations on the BIRTH of Niels. It is not noted anywhere.
It was his baptism I found. If he was home baptised (we don´t know), he might have been quite "old" when he got his baptism confirmated at church.

The baptism you found might be that of Maren Kirstine from the census.
I don´t think he adopted her. He was just married to her mother and the writer of the census considered him as her father. Usually she would be mentioned as his stepdaughter.

146. 1823. Den 25de October, Maren Kirstine. Bødker Johan Vendelin oh kone Maren Hansdatter. Hiemmedøbt d. 26de. October, til kirke d. 30. Nov. (November) Skræder Niels Kraates kone bar det. og Ane Kirstine Rasmusdatter fra? Skibsbye stod hos. Laurs Christensen Smed, Brændevinskarl (he is making akvavit) Niels Kaas og Skomager Jens Bindslev.

I have family living in Hjørring so I know the area well and I was quite surprised to realize that I didn´t know of a parish called Hjørring parish. I knew of 3 churches in the city of Hjørring. Sankt Olai, Sankt Hans and Sankt Catharinæ. It happened that Hjørring sogn changed name from 1988-2004 to Sankt Catharinæ sogn. I am sure it is not only a danish thing - people moving from the rural areas to the bigger cities :-D

Kind Regards 

Karin

[Cyndilou]

Karin,
You have given me more to study.  Thank you.  
I've got to get my mind around the fact that births and baptisms can be quite a bit apart from one another.  

I did find something.
A Peder Jensen SORT in Rubjerg in 1834
https://www.danishfamilysearch.com/cid3127523
Census Year
1834
Name
Peder Jensen Sort
Gender   Male
Age   64
County   Hjørring
Hundred   Vennebjerg
Parish   Rubjerg
Placename   Nordre Ruberg
   
Born date   1770
Born Place   

House Role   
Marital Status   Married

Family No   51
Matr No   et boelshus
Record No   269
Source reference   89

Business   Boelsmand lever af sin jordlod

Household
   Rec. no.   Name   Sex   Age   Born Year   Marital Status   Information
   269   Peder Jensen Sort   Male   64   1770   Married   Boelsmand lever af sin jordlod
   270   Maren Jensdatter   Female   62   1772   Married   Hans kone
   271   Christen Pedersen   Male   22   1812   Single

and his death in Rubjerg 1846:
https://www.danishfamilysearch.com/churchbook/sogn430/churchlisting135513/opslag14685221

Here's a Peder Jensen SORT in 1801 it says he's married but I don't see the wife?
https://www.danishfamilysearch.com/cid1519102

and 1840
https://www.danishfamilysearch.com/cid4271631

and Wife Maren dies 1844
https://www.danishfamilysearch.com/churchbook/sogn430/churchlisting135513/opslag14685226

Now if we can find more about this family

and here's a Mikkel Jensen SORT but the birth year is way off of the military rolls
https://www.danishfamilysearch.com/cid3146110 

I'm not quite understanding the "SORT" name.  I thought I did when I connected the family to SORTFIELD in Rubjerg but Niels Jensen never lives in Rubjerg and the SORT name show us at a baptism long before Jorgen moves to Rubjerg.  ??

After I clean up my excel chart a bit I'll see if I can attach what I've been putting together. 


keep smiling,
Cyndi

[Cyndilou]

Karin,
Here is someone, not part of this family, but because his name ends with SORT and I see Hjorring & Tornby in the record and it seems to be a very detailed record, I thought maybe you could look at it and see if it gives any clues to the SORT name? How did it come about?   

I used to think it was because our family moved to Sortfelt (in Rubjerg) but I noticed that Niels was a SORT and he began in Tornby and then lived most his life in Hjørring, never moving to "Sortfelt" yet he was listed as Niels Jensen SORT in one of his daughter's baptism records (even before his brother moved to Sortfelt) and also listed that way in his second marriage record.

what are your thoughts? 
https://www.danishfamilysearch.com/churchbook/sogn425/churchlisting10076/opslag80336
#163 Mikkel Pedersen SORT

thank you
Have a Happy day
Cyndi

[Karin Andersen]

Hi Cindi 

I have been searching for info about the name Sortfelt. The short form would be Sort.

I found a couple of books. The name Sortfelt is way older than from the persons we know as the Sort family. I´ll come back with info as soon as I have translated it.

The first book has a lot of info about Rubjerg sogn and also about the different farms/houses and the people who lived in them.
https://dis-danmark.dk/bibliotek/807024.pdf

I will translate every other line to English. (Note the name of the author).

Rubjerg sogn
Rubjerg Parish
I gamle dage
In the old days
En historisk topografisk beskrivelse
A historic and topografic description.
af (by) Severin Christensen Sortfeldt (note 1 below)
Hjøring
Hjørring
"Vendsyssel Tidende"s Bogtrykkeri
Printed at the newspaper Vendsyssel Tidende.
1923

Side 42
Page 42

Matr. Nr. 17 og 18. Sortfeldt. 1653 Søttfeld. Dette Sted blev opbygget af to Brødre, Peder Jensen og
Cadastral number 17 and 18. Sortfeldt. 1653 (the name was) Søttfeld. This place was rebuild by two brothers Peder Jensen and
Jørgen Jensen, fra Tornby som Fæstere til Kapellaniet i Hjøring ca. 1810. Senere er en stor Del af Jorden
Jørgen Jensen from Tornby as "fæstere" to the priesthood in Hjørring about 1810. Later a big part of the land
bortsolgt, og der er nu kun et Hus tilbage.
was sold, and now (1923) only one house remains.

Matr. Nr. 24. Næskjærbro. Et gammelt Hus, Hede- cg Kærlod til Præstegaarden, nævnes 1744, og ejedes
Cadastral number 24. Næskjærbro. An old house, heath and small landspot to the Rectory, is mentioned 1744, and owned
dengang af Niels Jensen ved »Niskjær«. Paa Heden fandtes der ved Udskiftningen kun to Huse, Hedestedet
at the time of Niels Jensen at "Niskjær". On the Heath existed in (note 2 below) (app. 1758-app. 1810) only two houses, "Hedestedet"
og Niskjær.
and Niskjær

Note 1. Severin Christensen Sortfeldt (dead 1936). He was a teacher and a local historian.
Note 2. "Udskiftningen" was a long period in the Danish history. For hundreds of years farmers had inherited  their ancestors land. When a farmer died his land was divided between his children and they each got a piece. When they died their children divided the land and their children each got a piece so the farmers ended up having a stribe of land here and there and everywhere in the parish. Some of the land they would grow together and some not. It was not an effective way of farming, so at a point it was decided to change it. Each farmer should end up having the same area of land but gathered together, not in stribes everywhere. It was a tough challenge. Some land was better than other land, and you should end up being able to grow the same amount as you used to.

I have also noted Mikkel Pedersen Sort but can´t place him yet.

Kind Regards 

Karin

[Karin Andersen]

Hi again. 

From the same book as in answer #63 of this topic.

Rubjerg sogn
I gamle dage
En historisk topografisk beskrivelse
af Severin Christensen Sortfeldt (note 1 below)
Hjøring
"Vendsyssel Tidende"s Bogtrykkeri
1923


As you saw in my last post about the cadastral number 17 and 18 the name Sortfeldt was known as long ago as in 1653 (then the name was) Søttfeld.

People in this area was very superstitious (as probably the rest of the population at the time)
Page 17. https://dis-danmark.dk/bibliotek/807024.pdf

Sydfor Sortfeldstedet laa 'Hestebakkerne", og her kunne man møde den hovedløse Hest (Helhesten).
South of the "Sortfeltstedet" (= Sortfelt place) was "Hestebakkerne" (heste= horses, bakker = hills) and here you could meet the horse without a head (Helhesten = Whole horse)

From page 46.
Tells about fishing and how cod was caught. It seems like the water was divided in "squares". Those squares had different names, and the names might be very old. One of the squares are called "Sortegrund" other names were/are "Pinesquare", South east square", "The yellow square" etc.

I also went to the local library to lend a very used book about Hjørring Amt. It describes the different parishes and is called:

J. P. Trap
Danmark.
Femte Udgave.
Redigeret af
Niels Nielsen, Peter Shautrup,
Poul Engelstoft
Hjørring Amt
Bind VI,1
G.E.C. Gads forlag 1960

Rubjerg sogn.

Areal i alt 1955: 1536 ha.
Area all together 1955 : 1563 hektar. (Danish acres)

Befolkning
Population

1/10 1955: 481 indb. fordelt på 143 husstande.
Oct. 1th. 1955: 481 people in 143 household.

1801: 232 people
1850: 377 people
1901: 473 people
1930: 566 people


Tornby sogn.

Also from the book: J. P. Trap: Danmark.

Fra side 215 (og 216):
From page 215 (and 216)

"Areal i alt: 1955: 3032 ha.
The area (parish) all together was in 1955 3032 ha = hektar = (danish acres)

Befolkning:
Population:

1/10 1955: 867 indb. fordelt på 249 husstande.
Oct. 1th. 1955 : 867 persons in 249 households.

1801 : 532 (persons)
1850 : 761 (persons)
1901 : 782 (persons)
1930 : 831 (persons)

(Fra s. 216. "En stor del af sognet opfyldes af Tornby klitplantage, 528 ha hvoraf 331 ha er bevokset med
A large proportion of the parish is occupied by Tornby Klitplantage, 528 ha (danish acres) of which 331 ha is with

forsk. granarter, contortafyr og bjergfyr"
[/b]different sort of pinetrees.[/b]

https://www.google.com/search?q=tornby+klitplantage&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjzk6TQoPHaAhXIVSwKHdc_A9UQsAQIVQ&biw=1600&bih=750

Also fra side 216:

Fra Tornby blev der i 1800t. drevet skudehandel på Norge, og der har været to pakhuse ved stranden.
In the 1800 hundred centurie trade by ships to Norway was made from Tornby and at the beach were two warehouses.
(Source: Klitgaard i AarbVends.1. 1915-16. 336.)

Af Tornby sogn var størstedelen 1625 ødelagt af sandflugt; 1631 var Øster Vadsager helt øde, Haven,
Of Tornby parish the majority was ruined 1625 by sandstorms; 1631 "Øster Vadsager" was completely deserted, "Haven"

Ravndrup, Heden, Vogishave og Sønder Krage, tidl. store gde, var da kun "tørre huse"; de to store gde
"Ravndrup", "Heden", "Vogishave" and "Sønder Krage", earlier large farm was then only "dry houses" (= probably didn´t give any surplus)

Nørre Krage og Ejstrup var delvis øde, og i Melby og Nørby var 8 gde kun "tørre huse". To Nejstgårde og to
"Nørre Krage" and Ejstrup was partly deserted, and in Melby and Nørby 8 farms was only "dry houses". Two farms (in?) "Nejstgårde" and two

Vadsagergårde så godt som øde ligesom 4 gde og 3 bol i Købsted. En del af det tilføgne genopdyrkedes dog inden næste sandflugtsperiode o. 1670.
farms in "Vadsagergård" almost deserted, likewise 4 farms and 3 small places in Købsted. A part of the sanded land was reclaimed as farmland before the next sandstorm around 1670.

As you can see, we are interested in people living a hard  life in two small rural parishes up there in the northern part of Denmark.
The Sort name is definitely a nickname the brothers got from the Sortfelt farm in Rubjerg and it hung on them and their other brother as well. The big question is: Who lived there before they came and what made them move from Tornby to Rubjerg. Did they inherit (most likely) this place from a relative and who would that person be?

Tornby is quite an awesome place to be nowadays. Have a look:  https://www.visitnordjylland.dk/tornby-strand-gdk642357 and https://www.tornbystrand.com/

Kind Regards

Karin

I`ll try to attach a map from Rubjerg from 1816. You can see the cadastral numbers 17 and 18 in the bottom of the map. A long stribe of land. (Found here: https://hkpn.gst.dk/ Sogne og herreds kort.

[Cyndilou]

Karin:
wow, what would I do without you!
I know this is taking up a quite a bit of your time.  It is greatly appreciated.  I feel like I'm getting to know my ancestors in a way I never would have without you.  
I love seeing the pictures of their land.  Thank you.

The map was too blurry for me to be able to see the numbers and the link didn't work for the map.  But thank you for your efforts.

Finding that book is exciting.  Oh how I wish I could read Danish!   Thank you for the time you have taken to translate some of it for me.    

So, if I am understanding what you have shared, the boys may have the name SORT because their parents/grandparents owned the land in Sortfelt and the name followed them.  

It looks like Jørgen, according to the military rolls, moved to Rubjerg in 1802.... one of the two brothers mentioned in the book who to rebuilt it.  Maybe that is when he inherited the land.  I have no clue really how to look up probates.  
wouldn't the land have been passed down to his father first then to him?  

I find it interesting that the book says Cadastral number 17 and 18 is the place the two brothers rebuilt and also is mentioned that Jens Nielsen owned Cadastral number 24.  
So who owned 17 & 18 before Peder and Jørgen?  I would have assumed they would have inherited their father's portion.

I also find it interesting that they were landowners but if I recall they died poor.  

Side 42
Page 42

Matr. Nr. 17 og 18. Sortfeldt. 1653 Søttfeld. Dette Sted blev opbygget af to Brødre, Peder Jensen og
Cadastral number 17 and 18. Sortfeldt. 1653 (the name was) Søttfeld. This place was rebuild by two brothers Peder Jensen and
Jørgen Jensen, fra Tornby som Fæstere til Kapellaniet i Hjøring ca. 1810. Senere er en stor Del af Jorden
Jørgen Jensen from Tornby as "fæstere" to the priesthood in Hjørring about 1810. Later a big part of the land
bortsolgt, og der er nu kun et Hus tilbage.
was sold, and now (1923) only one house remains.

Matr. Nr. 24. Næskjærbro. Et gammelt Hus, Hede- cg Kærlod til Præstegaarden, nævnes 1744, og ejedes
Cadastral number 24. Næskjærbro. An old house, heath and small landspot to the Rectory, is mentioned 1744, and owned
dengang af Niels Jensen ved »Niskjær«. Paa Heden fandtes der ved Udskiftningen kun to Huse, Hedestedet
at the time of Niels Jensen at "Niskjær". On the Heath existed in (note 2 below) (app. 1758-app. 1810) only two houses, "Hedestedet"
og Niskjær.
and Niskjær

you mentioned Tornby being destroyed by sandstorms.  
Was this area of Rubjerg destroyed the reason the 2 brothers rebuild it? 
 
What is "fetters" to the priesthood?

Jørgen Jensen from Tornby is "fetters" to the priesthood in Hjørring about 1810.

Thank you.  I hope you have a great week,
Gratefully,
Cyndi

[Karin Andersen]

Hi Cindi. 

Oh, you would do just fine without me, but thanks 

I know you make your findings public, so it is also in my interest you get it as right as possible. You know how it is. Mistakes tend to live forever on the internet.

About the "Sort" name.
Because of the way people named their children back in those days, they didn´t have a lot of names to choose from. So we ended up having a lot of people with the same name for example Jens Nielsen, Niels Jensen etc. To distinguish between people with the same name it was common custom to give people a nickname. Often the nick name would be the place you lived, the village you came from or the trade you had. We can guess why they got their Sort nick name, but actually do not know when "our family" got it, we only know it followed them later.

We know that a Jens Nielsen also had a plot of land in Rubjerg parish, however we do not know if he is "our" Jens Nielsen (I think he is not).

I don´t know where I got this misspelling from. (Jørgen Jensen from Tornby is "fetters" to the priesthood in Hjørring about 1810.). Fetters is not a Danish word. I meant to write "Jørgen Jensen from Tornby is fæster to the priesthood in Hjørring about 1810".

You need to know the meaning of the word "fæster".

Back in the old days most of the land in Denmark was owned by the King, the church or the nobilities. It was not owned by "fæsters" that I should rather call peasants than farmers.
To be a "fæster" means you have some agreement with the landowner. You agreed to grow the land, keep the farmhouse well, do some (a lot of) labor at the mainhouse (like Fuglsig) and often to deliver some of what you grow on "your" land or pay a certain amount of money to the mainhouse.

It was not the land as such you inherited, it was the agreement and the responsibilities you inherited from your father- if the landowner would let you. If you owned the land yourself you would be called a "selvejer".

I´ll guide you through the link with the map https://hkpn.gst.dk/

In the green spot you choose:

Sogne og herredskort.

Sogn. You write Rubjerg and you get to choose Rubjerg, Vennebjerg H.

At the bottom two choises of "Sognekort" appears. (Only one works though).

At the very left the little word Vis (show) appears in blue.
Choose that one and you´ll get to the map.

Make it full screen.

In order to zoom in, you put the curser on the map and pull the curser a little.

Use the "navigator" and choose zoom out, also with the curser on the map.

Kind Regards 

Karin

[Cyndilou]

Karin,
It is very helpful to learn the customs. I thank you again for your time in teaching me.  
This will greatly enhance my understanding of my family throughout Denmark as I search for my other lines as well.  

I think I know where the misspelling came from.  What I copied to paste in the quote was "fæster" when I hit the button to post,  it was changed to "fetters".  It's got to be something in the translating programming.  I just thought it translated it to English for me and that it would show correctly for you on your end.
I'm sure that as we communicate here not everything will be totally correct because of this automatic translating.  
But I must say that I am very grateful for the blessing of this translating program that makes it possible for us to communicate.  
and I trust the automatic translating on this site far more than google translating.  

I don´t know where I got this misspelling from. (Jørgen Jensen from Tornby is "fetters" to the priesthood in Hjørring about 1810.). Fetters is not a Danish word. I meant to write "Jørgen Jensen from Tornby is fæster to the priesthood in Hjørring about 1810".

You need to know the meaning of the word "fæster".

Back in the old days most of the land in Denmark was owned by the King, the church or the nobilities. It was not owned by "fæsters" that I should rather call peasants than farmers.
To be a "fæster" means you have some agreement with the landowner. You agreed to grow the land, keep the farmhouse well, do some (a lot of) labor at the mainhouse (like Fuglsig) and often to deliver some of what you grow on "your" land or pay a certain amount of money to the mainhouse.

It was not the land as such you inherited, it was the agreement and the responsibilities you inherited from your father- if the landowner would let you. If you owned the land yourself you would be called a "selvejer".

Gratefully,
Cyndi

by the way, is there a way for me to mark this thread as a favorite or something so that I can easily find it later? 
Right now while we are actively responding on it, it stays at the top of the forum, but there is so much you have taught me here I want to be able to access it in the future as well. 

[Karin Andersen]

Hi again Cindi 

You can mark this topic with the yellow star just as you would do with any other site you want as a favorite. I, myself, put one of the e-mails I get referring to answers in this topic in a special map called genealogy in my mail  system.

I just have to share this with you, I found a newer map of Rubjerg and actually Sortfelt is marked her, so it still exists.

I´ll guide you to the view.

https://hkpn.gst.dk/

In the green spot you choose:

Sogne og herredskort.

Sogn. You write Rubjerg and you get to choose Rubjerg, Vennebjerg H.

In the middle you can choose:

Vis sogne og matrikelkort (in blue)

The rest is the same as I wrote in my last post:

Make it full screen.

In order to zoom in, you put the curser on the map and pull the curser a little (+and mark the area you want to see="Rubjerg city".)

Use the "navigator" and choose zoom out, also with the curser on the map.

You will find Sortfelt when you find the middle of "Rubjerg city" and the street called Bævervej (Beaver street). The street bend a little next to the  spot.

Kind Regards 

Karin

[Cyndilou]

Karin,
Thank you.  I found the maps.  Thank you. 

I have not yet found the yellow star on this site.    but I will save an email in my family history file.

I'm still putting together a chart showing their travels....I'm a visual person. 
I tried to upload it but .xls files are not allowed on this site, maybe I'll try to send it to you through facebook messenger. 

thank you and I hope you have a Happy week.
Keep Smiling,
Cyndi

[Cyndilou]

Karin
I think I found a lot more on Peder.  I posted some on facebook to see if someone else might translate them for me.  
I surely overwork you
 
the first link I posted led me to find so much more  I decided I better post it all here, translated or not, to keep it all together.  

I believe you were right about who Peder married, Anne Marie Poulsdatter.  
She moves with him to Rubjerg where they have a child in 1802.  
I'm still looking for more children and her death because Peder then has a child in 1812 with a Maren Jensdatter.

1st son - Jens Pedersen 9 April?? 1802 Birth or Baptism – son of Peder Jensen and Anne Marie Poulsdatter
http://ao.salldata.dk/vis1.php?bsid=166795&side=42
   
confirmation 1816
- http://ao.salldata.dk/vis1.php?bsid=166797&side=97    

2nd son - Christen Pedersen 1812 - first record on the page – son of Peder Jensen Sort and Maren Jensdatter 2nd wife
http://ao.salldata.dk/vis1.php?bsid=166797&side=102
And his birth (or baptism?) as well also first one on this page.
http://ao.salldata.dk/vis1.php?bsid=166795&side=57

Ralph, who has helped me a great deal on facebook, suggested looking at this marriage record as possible marriage of Peder and Maren.  What do you think?  I don't know what it says, but it would have to indicate a 2nd marriage and it isn't in any area we've known this family to be.  

Ralph: "Something to consider, although Rubjerg is not named, marriage November 19, 1808 - - http://ao.salldata.dk/vis1.php?bsid=165287&side=41"


a Peder Jensen SORT born 1770 Married to Maren Jensdatter in Rubjerg
1834
https://www.danishfamilysearch.com/cid3127523

Maren and Peder 1840  https://www.danishfamilysearch.com/cid4271631

Maren Jensdatter 1844 dead age 71 Rubjerg husband Peder Jensen crossed off???? https://www.danishfamilysearch.com/cid4271631

Peder Widow 1845 but this says born in Rubjerg in 1770 (an error in birthplace? - He is the only brother we've found a birth/baptism record for)
https://www.danishfamilysearch.com/cid5324318
living with son

1811 There is a Peder Jensen in this record #4 but I can't read any other part of the record
http://ao.salldata.dk/vis1.php?bsid=166795&side=54

I searched the parish book from the birth of Jens Pedersen  - with first wife 1802 to the birth of
Christen Pedersen with his 2nd wife 1812 and couldn't find a death for Anne Marie Poulsdatter or a marriage in the Rubjerg parish with Maren Jensdatter.  Of course many of the records I couldn't make out what they said  

Have a great day and thank you,
Cyndi

[Karin Andersen]

Hi Cindi 

The Peder Jensen who in 1808 gets married to a Maren Jensdatter in Jerslev is not interesting for us.
Though they have the same (very common) names, Jerslev is quite a long way away from Rubjerg and this Peder Jensen is a Gaardmand (=Gårdmand) in Sterup. He owns his own farm as a selvejer.

In the census 1834 Niels Jensen Sort is a Boelsmand lever af sin jordlod (Boel=small piece of land, he is living of it).
It is not likely he went from nothing in Rubjerg, to be a farm owner in Jerslev and then going back to Rubjerg to a small piece of land.

You found Peder Jensen:

Ao (=Anno=Year) 1811 d. 1st. Janr. døde Maren Andersdr der opholdt sig hos hends [hendes] svigersøn Peder Jensen i Ruuberg, og begr. d. 8de gl. (age) 71.
Year 1811 1th of Jan. Maren Andersdatter died who resided with her son in law Peder Jensen in Ruberg and buried on the 8th. age 71.

Kind regards 

Karin

[Cyndilou]

Hi Karin:
I'm working on Michel Jensen Sort today

This Census is very confusing to me. https://www.danishfamilysearch.com/cid1550981
There is a Michel Jensen but birth year is too early.
Married to and Else Nielsdatter
with 2 children:
Inger Michelsdatter born in 1798 in Hjorring
Else Michelsdatter born 1799 in Hjorring

The only 2 children we know so far that Michel has.  
HOWEVER
The birth records for Inger and Else show mother to be Kirsten Laursdatter not Else Nielsdatter. ????


Marriage: Dec 12, 1797 to Kirsten Laursdatter in Hjorring
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17123820#164083,27548412


Child Inger Marie born in Hjorring June 7 1798
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17123820#164083,27548394
Confirmation:
https://www.danishfamilysearch.com/churchbook/sogn425/churchlisting140233/opslag15468202
Does this confirmation list parents?


Child Else born in Hjorring Oct 5 1799
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17123820#164083,27548396
Didn't find her confirmation.
I did find her getting married the same year her uncle Niels marries his 2nd wife.
https://www.danishfamilysearch.com/churchbook/sogn425/churchlisting140233/opslag15468230

What are your thoughts?  

Cyndi

[Karin Andersen]

Hi Cindi  

I´ll look at it.

I found this info.

Fuglsig Gods Jordebog. I think it is from 1774

The "Jordebog" is a book showing the land belonging the the Mainhouse called Fuglsig. Also the "value" of the land and who is the "fæster" of it. It also show what you had to pay yearly for being a "fæster".
Opsl. 15. https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=21026842#330207,66418250

I can´t be sure but I think this might be your Jens Nielsen. I think so, because his son is working at Fuglsig a little later, which indicates his father is a "fæster" at Fuglsig Gods.
Opsl. 20. Tornby sogn sogn. https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=21026842#330207,66418256

Jens Nielsen. Hartkorn. 6-2-1. Landegilde Penge 4.
Hartkorn, is kind of a measurement of the value of the land in the sense of how much you can grow on it. "Landegilde" is how much you must pay for growing this piece of land, here 4 which I would believe is 4 Rigsdaler.

Kind Regards  

Karin

Extra: Year? Jørgen Jensen in Rubjerg https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=21026842#330207,66418265

[Karin Andersen]

Hi again 

I´m absolutely not sure about the years when these papers were written.

I think they might be much older, like in 1742?. If so the Jørgen Jensen mentioned would be a lot older than your Jørgen Jensen. However it might be one of his ancestors, so I´ll put the info in here

Year unsure?. Start of book:  https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=21026842#330207,66418271

Something happens to the land this Jørgen is the fæster of.

1742?. Rubjerg sogn. Jørgen Jensen. Hartkorn  _-3-3-2. Herligheden til Lassens arvinger, bondeskylden til St. Olufs kirke. https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=21026842#330207,66418274
The house and ground is going to the heirs after Lassen, however the pay (from Jørgen) goes to St. Olufs church (probably Sanct Olai church)

Karin 

[Cyndilou]

Karin:

It is interesting that he leaves Rubjerg for St Olai where my Jørgen was and then my Jørgen goes back to Rubjerg.  What would we need to do to follow the Jørgen Jensen in this book? 

I think they might be much older, like in 1742?. If so the Jørgen Jensen mentioned would be a lot older than your Jørgen Jensen. However it might be one of his ancestors, so I´ll put the info in here

Year unsure?. Start of book:  https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=21026842#330207,66418271

so the suspense is killing me  wha happened to the land? 
Interesting note there was a "Lassen" as a witness at a couple of Jørgen's children. 

Something happens to the land this Jørgen is the fæster of.

1742?. Rubjerg sogn. Jørgen Jensen. Hartkorn  _-3-3-2. Herligheden til Lassens arvinger, bondeskylden til St. Olufs kirke. https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=21026842#330207,66418274
The house and ground is going to the heirs after Lassen, however the pay (from Jørgen) goes to St. Olufs church (probably Sanct Olai church)

very grateful,
cyndi

[Karin Andersen]

Hi Cindi 

I am not sure I understand who you mean when you write "It is interesting that he leaves Rubjerg for St Olai where my Jørgen was and then my Jørgen goes back to Rubjerg". 

I think the Lassen names as witnesses to the baptisms is a coincidence. Had they been the owners of the land a title like Sr. (Sir) or Hr. (Mister) would probably have been written before their name. These Lassen is probably "just" fæsters as well.

In answer #68 you got a link showing the land in Rubjerg. https://hkpn.gst.dk/

The "Jordebog" (plural= Jordebøger) shows where the "Main houses" had their land, the value of the crops they could expect to be grown there and the name of the "fæsters".

It often just mentions the name of the "fæster" and sometimes what they had to pay and when they got their "fæstebrev" (The paper that confirms the agreement).

It does not (Often) have a lot of personal informations on the individuel "fæster".

The "fæster" would for the most part stay in the place he got even if the ownership of the land are changed from one owner to another and at this time with the "udskiftning" (swap of land) going on the ownership shifted a lot.

Just for the fun of it I made a list of Main houses with land in Rubjerg, Tornby and some of Sct. Olai sogne.

Ålborghus-Åstrup-Børglum-Sejlstrup amter og Ålborg Stiftamt
Specifikationer over udstedte fæstebreve (My notes about the Jens Nielsens are nothing else than notes)

Odden. Fra opsl. 10.
Opsl. 14. Tornby:
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20306159#304168,62291300

Nørre Eskiær. Fra opsl. 16.
Opsl. 17. Tornby: 
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20306159#304168,62291303

Linderumgaard. Fra opsl. 22.
Opsl. 27. Tornby:
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20306159#304168,62291313

Bøgsted. Fra opsl. 39.
Opsl. 42.
Sct. Olufs sogn, Skibsby.
Skallerup sogn, Sønderlev.
Rubjerg sogn.
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20306159#304168,62291328

Asdal. Fra opsl. 55.
Opsl. 58. Tornby sogn.
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20306159#304168,62291344

Baggesvogn. Fra opsl. 111. 1776
Opsl. 114. Tornby sogn. _ _ By (Øe?)
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20306159#304168,62291400

Seilstrup og Hastrupgaard. Fra opsl. 123.
Opsl. 123. Rubjerg sogns kirke.
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20306159#304168,62291409
Opsl. 126. Rubjerg sogn.
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20306159#304168,62291412

Børglum Kloster. Fra opsl. 128.
Opsl.133. Rubjerg sogn.
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20306159#304168,62291419

Eskjær fra opsl. 236
Opsl. 239. Tornby sogn.
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20306159#304168,62291525

Fuglsig fra opsl. 241.
Opsl. 241+242. Skibsby:
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20306159#304168,62291527
Opsl. 243. Tornby sogn + Jens Nielsen i Sønderlev.
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20306159#304168,62291529

Nørre Eskær 1777 fra 252.
Opsl. 253. Tornby sogn.
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20306159#304168,62291539

Villerup fra opsl. 255.
Opsl. 256. Ruberg sogn
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20306159#304168,62291542
Opsl. 257. Skallerup sogn, Sønderlev.
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20306159#304168,62291543

Fuglsig 1777 fra opsl. 278.
Opsl. 278+279+282. Skibsby. (Jens Nielsen)
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20306159#304168,62291564
Opsl. 279. Brønderup.
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20306159#304168,62291565
Opsl. 280+281. Skallerup sogn, Brønderup. En Niels Jensen, Fæstebrev d 16. okt. 1775. Forrige? fæstebrev d. 16. okt. 1755.
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20306159#304168,62291566
Opsl. 283. Sønderlev, Skallerup sogn, Rubjerg sogn.
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20306159#304168,62291569

Kiærsgaard 1777. fra opsl. 283.
Opsl. 283. Tornby sogn, Kiøbsted.

Linderumgaard 1777 fra opsl. 362.
Opsl. 367. Tornby sogn.
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20306159#304168,62291653

Børglum Kloster fra 392.
Opsl. 396. Sønderlev.
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20306159#304168,62291682

I havn´t had time to look at Michel Jensen yet.

Kind Regards 

Karin

[Cyndilou]

Thank you Karin.  I appreciate learning all these different records available. 
I will look at all these links you've shared. 

I thought it was interesting that a Jørgen Jensen (older than mine) left Rubjerg for St Olai and then my Jørgen went back to Rubjerg. 

Gratefully,
Cyndi

[Cyndilou]

I'm just posting some notes from previous posts here again to keep all of Jørgen's brother Michel's info together.  
and I have more to add:

This census I'm pretty sure is my Michel although the birthdate is off by about 7 years. Mainly because of the name "SORT" and where he is living.
https://www.danishfamilysearch.com/cid3146110
This 1834 Census shows Michel Jensen "SORT" married to Kirstine Laursdatter
And we have the births of two daughters to this union

Baptism: Inger Marie (BK17482)
Hjørring A., Vennebjerg H., Sankt Hans og Olai sogn. 1780FKVD-1804FKVD. Opsl. 22.  
1798. Juni d. 7. Mickel Jensen og hustru Kirsten Laursdatter hiemmedøbt Inger Marie konf. d. 8. Juli. Q.F.: Kirsten Sørensdatter (BK17267), Karen Nyegaards Datter. M. F.: Stephen Madsen, Niels Jensen (BK17288),  Peder Jensen (BK17290).
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17123820#164083,27548394
Note: Kirsten Sørensdatter (BK17267)  is the wife of Mickels brother Jørgen Jensen (BK17265)


Baptism: Else (BK17483)
Hjørring A., Vennebjerg H., Sankt Hans og Olai sogn. 1780FKVD-1804FKVD. Opsl. 24.  
1799. d. 5. okt. Mickel Jensen Sort og hustru Kirsten Laurs Datter, Else hiemmedøbt Conf. d. 3. Nov. Q.F.: Maren Nielsdatter Rebslager kone og Ane              fra Wandsted? M. F.: Niels Jensen (BK17288) i Hiøring, Peder Jensen (BK17290) hos Købmand Løth og Christen Christensen.
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17123820#164083,27548396

If that is my Michel then this one cannot be.  This census is for 1801.

More about this family:
Hjørring A., Vennebjerg H., Sankt Olai sogn, Schibsbye, , 24, FT-1801, B8401
Michel Jensen 50 Gift Mand Inderster og hand inrouleret Matros  (He is a sailor)
Else Nielsdatter 48 Gift hans Kone  
Inger Michelsdatter 3 Ugift deres Barn  
Else Michelsdatter 2 Ugift deres Barn

Without remembering the 1834 Census I thought maybe Kirstine had died and Michel remarried before 1801 since this record shows daughters with the same names, born in the same order, born in the same years and living in the same place.  SO coincidental!  However, this cannot be my family since Kirstine shows up in the 1834 Census.


More info I found on the daughters:
Inger Marie born June 7 1798
Here is her Confirmation #16 https://www.danishfamilysearch.com/churchbook/sogn425/churchlisting140233/opslag15468202
I can not read the record so I don't know if this is Michel and Else's or Michel and Kirstine's daughter.
and
Else born Oct 5 1799
Can't read all of this but I believe this is Michel and Kirstine's daughter Else's marriage record 1827 In Hjorring, Hjorring (then she disappears....can't find her in another census – did they always have to Report in censuses?  This whole family seems to be able to avoid it.)
https://www.danishfamilysearch.com/churchbook/sogn425/churchlisting140233/opslag15468230
She is getting married the same year her uncle Niels marries his 2nd wife (same page).

Other info previously posted about Michel....just want to keep it all together:

Jørgens brother Mikkel Jensen (Sort) (BK17289)

Åstrup 1789. Hovedrullen. Tornby sogn. 94/104
(BK17289) 190. Michel Jensen - Tornbye - 22 (born 1767 +/-) - 62 - Sønderlef. (Ikke i rullen i 1793)
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=16481031#18201,1032148

Michel baptised:
21. aug. 1768. No churchbook record available. Date known because of note from his communion.
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17127176#170601,28645194

Communion:
Tornby sogn. 1788. Konfirmeret Michel Jensen døbt Dom 12. p. Trinit [21. aug.]1768
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17127176#170601,28645194

Marriage:
Hjørring A., Vennebjerg H., Sankt Hans og Olai sogn. 1780FKVD-1804FKVD. Opsl. 40.
1797. Dec. 12. Trolovet ung karl Mikkel Jensen (BK17289) fra Tiirup med Pigen Kirsten Laursdatter (BK17481) Forlovere Kiøbmand  Klausen? og Snedkermester Svend Lund af Hiøring og xxvied d. 23. jan. 98.
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17123820#164083,27548412

Shari, another sweet friend met on a similar forum,  spent time last week teaching me how to follow the military rolls.  

Here are Military rolls found for Michel Jensen:
1789 Hov   12=Tornby   -   190      Tornbye   22   62 ?   Sønderlef. (Ikke i rullen i 1793) Sønderlev is in Skallerup      
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=16481031#18201,1032148

1793 Hov   16 = Skallerup   -   90   S?  15 A 178  15=st Olai   Tornbye   23   62 1/2      FL #12   
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=16481031#18279,1057234

Going to 15= St Olai  but by next Roll St Olai will be Lægd 28                                 
1793 Tilg   15= St Olai   A178   C134   H 9 C 134   Tornbye   x24   23   62 1/2      FL #16    
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=16481031#18212,1034485

1795 C Hov   9= Horne   C134   E214   28 E 214   Tornbye   26   62 1/2      FL 28 _A178   
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=16481031#18284,1058375

1797 E Tilg   28=St Olai   E214            26   62 1/2      SL ???? 1794  FL #9 _134   
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=16481031#18215,1035248

1798 F Hov   28=St Olai   E214   151         29   62 1/2      A whole bunch said - NEED TRANSLATION    
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=16481031#18292,1059943

1803 Hov   28=St Olai   151   94      Tornbye   33   62 1/2      O.O. 180?   
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=16481031#18301,1061977

1806 Hov   28=St Olai   94 IS MISSING  I think the previous roll was his last.                         


I think the only questions really left on Michel are:
1.  Still do not know if there were more children
2.  Don't have a death date and place for Michel
3.  Don't have a death date and place for Kirstine
I did find the death of "A" Kirstine Larsdatter in 1801: https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17123820#164083,27548406
But it can't be Peder's wife because she is in the 1834 census.  

[Karin Andersen]

Hi Cindi 

If you look at the original census from 1801, I would think the writer made a huge mistake.

If you compare household no. 23 and 24, you´ll find two married couples with almost the same names (only difference is Niels and Mikkel). Both are Jensens and both wives are named Else Nielsdatter, both men are 50 and both the Else Nielsdatters are 48 years old. Michels age is off and we know his childrens mother is Kirsten Laursdatter.
https://www.danishfamilysearch.dk/sogn432/census/census1801/opslag6097594

About the 1834 census.

Hjørring, Vennebjerg, Sankt Olai, Schibsbyhede, Et huus, 76, FT-1834, C5563
Michel Jensen Sort 73 Gift Huusmand og dagleier 
Kirstine Larsdatter 86 Gift Hans kone, almisselem 
Mette Marie Christensdatter 12 Ugift Pleiedatter 

The Kirstine Larsdatter age 86, is she the same Kirstin Laursdatter who is the mother of Michels children? If she is, her age must be wrong here. She would have been about 50 years old when she had her first child and 51 when her second child was born. She might be a quite a different person and not the mother of his children.

Hjørring A., Vennebjerg H., Sankt Hans og Olai sogn. 1780FKVD-1804FKVD. Opsl. 22.   
1798. Juni d. 7. Mickel Jensen og hustru Kirsten Laursdatter hiemmedøbt Inger Marie konf. d. 8. Juli. Q.F.: Kirsten Sørensdatter, Karen Nyegaards Datter. M. F.: Stephen Madsen, Niels Jensen,  Peder Jensen.
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17123820#164083,27548394

Hjørring A., Vennebjerg H., Sankt Hans og Olai sogn. 1780FKVD-1804FKVD. Opsl. 24.   
1799. d. 5. okt. Mickel Jensen Sort og hustru Kirsten Laurs Datter Else hiemmedøbt Conf. d. 3. Nov. Q.F.: Maren Nielsdatter Rebslager kone og Ane              fra Wandsted? M. F.: Niels Jensen i Hiøring, Peder Jensen hos Købmand Løth og Christen Christensen.
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17123820#164083,27548396

Not much help figuring things out 

Inger Marie never gets married.

Hjørring, Vennebjerg, Hjørring Købstad, Hjøring, Algaden, 10, FT-1834, C5684
Wilhelm Borgen 60 Gift Forligelsescommiessair   
Christine Marie Borgen 49 Gift hans Kone 
Elisabeth Sophie Borgen 19 Ugift deres Børn 
Hermandine Christiane Borgen 15 Ugift deres Børn   
Nicoline Borgen 13 Ugift  deres Børn   
Andreas Borgen 12 Ugift deres Børn 
Wilhelmine Borgen 9 Ugift deres Børn 
Bendine Borgen 8 Ugift  deres Børn   
Inger Marie Mikkelsdatter 37 Ugift Tjenestepige

Inger Marie burried in Sankt Olai. feb. 26th. 1862. She died the 21.
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17123824#164089,27549496

Else have a child before marriage with. a Christen Lemberg before she marry Niels Christensen Blæsdahl.

Hjørring A., Vennebjerg H., Sankt Olai Sogn. 1814FKVDJ-1841FKVDJ. Opsl. 60.
3. 31. Marts 1812. Ane Kirstine. Tieneste Pige Else Mikkelsdr. Udlagt som Barnefader Kristen Lemberg fra Hiøring. Hiemmedøbt d. 31. Martstil kirken d. 26. Maj. Faddere: Maren ___datter i Ny ??, Inger Marie Mikkelsdatter, Skotler? Kristen Kristensen, Mikkel Mortensen, Thomas ____ alle fra Skibsby.
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17126072#168505,28295368

Hjørring, Vennebjerg, Hjørring Købstad, Hjøring, Fiskebakken, 32 F2, FT-1834, C5684
Niels Christensen Blæsdahl             48     Gift          Dagleier      
Else Mikkelsdatter                             34   Gift          hans Kone      
(Født 1821) Ane Kirstine Christensdatter  13  Ugift     deres Børn      
(Født 1828) Christen Mickael Nielsen     6     Ugift          deres Børn      
(Født 1831) Jens Christian Nielsen     3     Ugift          deres Børn 

Hjørring, Vennebjerg, Hjørring Købstad, Fiskerbakken, , 304, FT-1840, C7343
Niels Christensen     53     Gift          Arbeidsmand 
Else Mikkelsdatter     42     Gift          Hans kone 
Christen Nielsen     2               Deres søn 

Hjørring, Vennebjerg, Hjørring Købstad, Fiskerbakken, , 235, FT-1845, C0550
Niels Christensen Blæsdal     54     Gift          Arbeidsmand     Hørmested sogn Hjørring amt 
Else Mikkelsdatter             43     Gift          Hans kone     St Olai sogn Hjørring amt 
Ane Christensdatter       24     Ugift          Deres datter     St Olai sogn Hjørring amt 
Christian Michael Nielsen      7     Ugift          Pleiebarn     Hjørring 
Jens Christian Nielsen       1     Ugift          Pleiebarn     Hjørring 
Julius Frisenberg               1     Ugift          Pleiebarn     Hjørring

Hjørring, Vennebjerg, Hjørring Købstad, Hjørring Kiøbstad, Fiskerbakken, 107, FT-1850, C0070
Niels Bloidal??               64     Gift          Arbeidsmand, Huusfader     Lendum Sogn, Hjøring Amt 
Else Mikkelsdatter             52     Gift          hans Kone     St. Olai S., Hjøring Amt 
Stine Christensdatter     29     Ugift          hans Steddatter     St. Olai S., Hjøring Amt 
Chresten Nielsen             13     Ugift          hans egen Søn     Hjøring 
Jens Christian Lundbye         6     Ugift          hans Pleiesøn     Hjøring

Hjørring, Vennebjerg, Hjørring Købstad, Fiskerbakken, 184, Forhuus, 337, FT-1855, D7014
Niels Christian Christensen Blæsdal     69     Gift     Arbeidsmand. huusfader      Hørmested Sogn, Hjørring Amt 
Else Mikkelsdatter                                     56     Gift     Hans kone                 Skibsbye, St. Olai Sogn, Hjørring Amt

Hjørring, Vennebjerg, Hjørring Købstad, Fiskebakken og Basingade No 184, , 169, FT-1860, D6397
Niels Christensen Blæsdal     74     Gift     Huusfader. Arbeidsmd.          Hørmested 
Else Mikkelsen                     61     Gift     hans Kone          St. Olai

Hjørring, Vennebjerg, Hjørring Købstad, Fiskerbakken, Matr. nr. 158, 8, FT-1870, D7020
Else Michelsdatter     75     Enke     Huusmoder     Arbeiderske     St. Olai Sogn, Hjørring A. 

Else dies january 12th. 1890 and is buried the 19th. in Sankt Catrinæ sogn in Hjørring.
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17123824#164095,27550628

Kind Regard 

Karin

[Cyndilou]

Karin,
Thank you again for sharing so much of your time.
Michel's situation is very confusing to me. I think I will not focus too much on either of the censuses which may have lots of errors.  
Also, I have noticed different spellings for different Michel's (Mikkel).  I believe mine is spelled "Michel".  Would that be pretty consistent or are the names interchangeable?  

I'm just going to use the military records, the marriage record and the children's birth records and put what I do know into familysearch and maybe eventually I'll come across the death dates

I'm currently working on transfering all this wonderful information you've helped me find for all the brothers into familysearch


refering to Answer #76

Fuglsig Gods Jordebog. I think it is from 1774

The "Jordebog" is a book showing the land belonging the the Mainhouse called Fuglsig. Also the "value" of the land and who is the "fæster" of it. It also show what you had to pay yearly for being a "fæster".
Opsl. 15. https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=21026842#330207,66418250

I can´t be sure but I think this might be your Jens Nielsen. I think so, because his son is working at Fuglsig a little later, which indicates his father is a "fæster" at Fuglsig Gods.
Opsl. 20. Tornby sogn sogn. https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=21026842#330207,66418256

Jens Nielsen. Hartkorn. 6-2-1. Landegilde Penge 4.
Hartkorn, is kind of a measurement of the value of the land in the sense of how much you can grow on it. "Landegilde" is how much you must pay for growing this piece of land, here 4 which I would believe is 4 Rigsdaler.

I've been looking at the links you posted trying to understand them.  I don't really.
I'm a little confused with OPSL 20
Is this record showing Jens Nielsen in Tornby?  and what is the connection to Opsl 15?  Fugslig is in St Olai isn't it?  
Will you teach me about these books.  How are you connecting Jen's son to Fuglsig from this record?  

looking at your notes I'm also wondering...
IF it is my Jens Nielsen then he would have moved to Skisbsby by 1777?  (which would make sense where the family seems quite established in that area)
Then you've listed Brønderup.  That is where Jen's son Niels is listed living in the 1789 Military rolls
Then you also list Sønderlev  Skallerup .  Michel is recorded, in the rolls, as residing in Sønderlev  and Peder is recorded as residing in Fuglsig and reported working in Sønderlev in the 1789 Military record.
In 1793 Michel is residing in Skallerup.  
(oh by the way, I found a lot of the military rolls.  I will send you my excel file, through facebook, with all I found).  

Extra: Year? Jørgen Jensen in Rubjerg https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=21026842#330207,66418265

Going back a few pages I see a 1742 and forward a few pages another 1742 and a few more a 1747 so I don't think this could be my Jorgen.  
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=21026842#330207,66418263


Do you mind if I copy and post what you found in the book in answer #63 on to Jorgen and Peder's pages on Familysearch?  

Thank you kindly,
Cyndi

[Cyndilou]

Karin
Hi again
I'm studying again today what you posted in #76

Can you tell me what each of the columns are in these "Main House" records? 

So do the owners of the "Main houses" own land all over the county?  So the owner of the "Main house" in Tornby also owns land in St. Olai and Rubjerg and it's all recorded under the "main house"?

thank you again for taking time to teach me all the different records available. 

gratefully,
Cyndi

[Cyndilou]

 
Karin,

Just want to document some more thoughts here.  
I found a death record for Inger Nielsdatter (presumed mother of Jørgen and the 3 brothers) and it says that she was living with her son Peder Jensen SORT.  So that's pretty convincing to me.

Inger Nielsdatter - Maarup Sogn  died 1817 - 80 Years old (birth about 1737) http://ao.salldata.dk/vis1.php?bsid=166797&side=150&height=775


Since she was found in Maarup Sogn I looked in Maarup for her husband and found this Jens Nielsen who died in 1825 at 89 years old.
https://www.danishfamilysearch.com/churchbook/sogn428/churchlisting134735/opslag14566580  
but his record doesn't really say anything about him....and I'm assuming this couldn't really be Inger's husband because why would she be living with her son Peder if Jens was still alive?  

Now that we have a date for Inger's death, is there a way to find a probate?  

Last Known place for Inger and Jens to have lived was Nørre Tornby - 1801 Census
https://www.danishfamilysearch.com/cid1557291
then Inger in Maarup in 1817 so sometime between 1801 and 1817 they moved to Maarup or Rubjerg.  

Is there a way to follow where Jens Nielsen goes in those Main House records?

Thank you
Cyndi

[Cyndilou]

Karin,
It's me again 

another question
answer #49
Why is Ane Marie listed as "Bødkers" in this birth record

Baptised: Inger Marie (BK17298)
Hjørring A., Vennebjerg H., Sankt Hans og Olai sogn. 1780FKVD-1804FKVD. Opsl. 16.
28. juli. 1793. Niels Jensen og Ane Marie Bødkers. Inger Marie. Q. f. Maren, Søren Andersens datter i Giurup, Marie Andersdatter ibidm. M. f.: Christen Andersen hos Simon Skrædder, Mikkel Jensen t. i Sønderlev, Peder Jensen t. i Fuglsig. Intr. d. 25. aug.
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17123820#164083,27548388

I'm pretty sure this Ane Marie Bødkers is Ane Marie Thomasdatter from looking at the witnesses compared to the other children and this census that shows Inger Marie born in 1793 -  but where does the "Bødkers" come in? 

Hjørring, Vennebjerg, Hjørring Købstad, Østergade 116,, 140, FT-1801, B8161
Niels Jensen Sort 35 Married Male Daytime Owner
Ane Marie Thomasdatter 32 Married His wife 
Dorthe Nielsdatter 10 Unmarried Your child   
Inger Marie Nielsdatter 8 Ugift Your child   
Bodil Sophie Nielsdatter 4 Ugift Your child 
Karen Nielsdatter 2 Ugift Your child   
Thomas Nielsen 1Use your child

thanks,
Cyndi

[Karin Andersen]

Hi Cindi 

I´ll try to answer some of your questions starting with the ones from #80.

You wrote:  "I'm a little confused with OPSL 20. Is this record showing Jens Nielsen in Tornby?  and what is the connection to Opsl 15?  Fuglsig is in St Olai isn't it? Will you teach me about these books.  How are you connecting Jen's son to Fuglsig from this record?"
Answer: Usually, when you were a "fæster", you would stay at exactly the same place often your whole life. However the land you had belonged to someone else (The Main houses) and due to the "udskiftningen" (swap of land) occurring at this time your land might be owned by several different owners and you as a "fæster" would "follow" the land. Because you as a "fæster" "followed" the ownership of the land, so did your sons. The Main house was interested in you being able to handle your land well, but if you had many sons or sons with special skills the Main house could require your sons to work somewhere else and I think they often would. And yes, all info about the land would be recorded to the Main house who owned it. The name "Jordebog" is directly translated Land book :-D 

Just to illustrate how "bad" it could be to be a landowner, I´ll show you an old topic of mine. It answers another of your questions as well. Yes, the nobilities could have many pieces of land in the same parish, county or all over the country. Just look at this: Answer #22, #23, #24. https://www.slaegtogdata.dk/forum/index.php?topic=123085.0 

About the columns in "Main House" records.
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=21026842#330207,66418252

The top, from the left side.
1.
Stift: Is a collection of parishes belonging to the same church area under a Bishop
og Herred. It´s like a jurisdiction. https://www.dis-danmark.dk/kort/korthjor.htm

2.
Sognet: the parish

3.
Nye matriculs No. (=matrikel nummer): New cadastral number

4.
Stæder (=Steder): (Name of) Places

Byers: (Name of) Cities (or villages).

og Beboernes navne. Name of habitants.

5.
Hartkorn: Actually means hard corn (corn for making bread), earlier a barrel hartkorn was a measurement for the value of farming land (a combination of size and performance). In the long period, where payment was made as trade swaps of concrete goods it was necessarily to have a common measurement. It was decided to compare all goods with the value of "the hard corn". Hartkorn was measured in barrels. One barrel = 8 "skæppe" = 32 "fjerdingkar" = 96 "album". The smallest measurement was 1/4 album also called a Penning, it was 2 "favne" (or 2x3 = 6 alen on each side, equals 36 square "alen". https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hartkorn
Below the Hartcorn the different signs for those measurements are shown for tønde (barrel), skæppe, fjerdingkar and album.

6.
Penge (= money): Divided into spaces for Rigsdaler, Mark and Skilling. http://www.thorshoj.dk/moenter_og_sedler.htm

7.
Landgilde af: The tax  the fæster had to pay to the landowner.
Divided into (and below the same measurement as under Hartkorn (hard corn)):https://moelleforum.dk/files/De_danske_kornsorter.pdf
Rug: Rye
Byg: Barley (?)
Haure (=havre): Oats.

8.
og andre specier: (Other things).
Below: Heens, Sviin, giæs, hands ?.  Chickens, pigs, geese, his? ??
(I can see some af them are asked to deliver butter)

Finding Inger living with her son Peder is a great finding. The Jens Nielsen you found might be yours also. It was quite common to move to live with a son when you got too old to work as a "fæster".
Often a son would take over the fathers fæste, but if no one was interested in doing that and they had managed to get a more profitable "fæste", the parents would come and live with one of them.

If we can figure out which Main house Peders fæste belonged to, that is where we would have to look for a probate.

Your question from #83.
I don´t know why Anne Marie has Bødker mentioned here. Is her father a Bødker? Or she might have been a maid working for a Bødker.

Kind Regards 

Karin

[Karin Andersen]

Hi again  

I was a little too fast - twice.

First I have to correct my English. Hardkorn is hard grain, not corn as you know it  

About Inger Nielsdatters death. Her burriel is from the Rubjerg churckbook. She is nor in Maarup.
https://www.danishfamilysearch.com/churchbook/sogn428/churchlisting134735/opslag14566580

The Jens Nielsen you found in Maarup is not yours. This one was a former farm owner in Vidstrup. He is probably this guy:
Hjørring, Vennebjerg, Maarup, Vistrup bye, , 1, FT-1801, B4694
Jens Nielsen 63 Gift huusbonde bonde og gaardbeboer    
Mette Sørendatter 54 Gift hans kone  
Søren Jensen 24 Ugift deres børn enroull matros  
Niels Jensen 20 Ugift deres børn enroull. matros på flaaden  
Andreas Jensen 15 Ugift deres børn    
Maren Jensdatter 12 Ugift deres børn  
Anne Christensdatter 46 Ugift tjenestepige  

Where did you find Peder Sort in Maarup?

Kind Regard  

Karin

[Cyndilou]

Karin,

Thanks for helping me understand the records and the customs of Denmark.  

oh goodness.  I don't remember now what I was looking at late last night that made me think that Inger was found in Maarup.  
I see I have the link for her in Rubjerg.  I guess I'm getting so many notes I can't keep them straight.

I don't recall Peder in Maarup except when I had a brief brain lapse last night and posted his mother's death in Maarup documenting she was living with Peder.  

I believe Peder has been in Rubjerg since 1801 or 1802.
We have this marriage for a presumed -  1st wife - Anne Marie Poulsdatter married in Hjorring (or St Catharine?) 1801
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17123820#164083,27548414

They must have moved between 1801 and 1802 when we find the birth of a child for Peder Jensen and Anne Marie Poulsdatter in Rubjerg in 1802
I do not have the translations for these records yet but I think I see a Jorgen Sort as a witness which would tie this Peder to the Sorts.  
http://ao.salldata.dk/vis1.php?bsid=166795&side=42
http://ao.salldata.dk/vis1.php?bsid=166797&side=97
   
and in 1834 he is still in Rubjerg where we find him in this census

Citation
https://www.danishfamilysearch.com/cid3127523
Notes
1834 census in Rubjerg Hjorring
   Sex   Age   Born Year   Marital Status   Information
   269   Peder Jensen Sort   Male   64   1770   Married   Boelsmand lever af sin jordlod
   270   Maren Jensdatter   Female   62   1772   Married   Hans kone
   271   Christen Pedersen   Male   22   1812   Single

I have yet to find the marriage record for Peder and Maren Jensdatter nor have I found the death of his 1st wife.
I do have the birth record of a child between Peder and Maren and I have Maren's death record and Peder's death record.  
 
child's birth record: http://ao.salldata.dk/vis1.php?bsid=166795&side=57

Death of Maren Jensdatter March 27 1844 age 71   
https://www.danishfamilysearch.com/churchbook/sogn430/churchlisting135513/opslag14685226   

23 Jeb 1846 Death of Peder in Rubjerg - from SORTFELT age 76   
https://www.danishfamilysearch.com/churchbook/sogn430/churchlisting135513/opslag14685221   

If we can figure out which Main house Peders fæste belonged to, that is where we would have to look for a probate.

How do we figure this out?  
would a census help?  
I have a census for Peder's son Christian in Ruberg Bye.  Would he have taken over for Peder?  
I guess his residence could have changed between 1817 when Inger dies and 1845 when this census was taken.

https://www.danishfamilysearch.com/cid5324318

Your question from #83.
I don´t know why Anne Marie has Bødker mentioned here. Is her father a Bødker? Or she might have been a maid working for a Bødker.

So this is probably a name attached to her like SORT was attached to the Jensen's?  What is a Bødker?

I'm grateful for your help.  Thank you for sharing so much of your time,
Cyndi

[Cyndilou]

Karin,
me again

Someone on Facebook just transcribed these records (I still don't understand them because they are not translated just transcribed)
I guess what I thought was Jorgen sort is someone else  which means maybe my Peder didn't marry Anne Marie Poulsdatter.  ??
I don't recognize anyone in the list of witnesses.  None of them are the same as in the other brothers.  

However, the confirmation says they are from Sortfeldt.  

1. The birth record
1802 den 9 April føde Peder Jensøn og Hustrue Anne Marie Poulsdatter 1 Søn som blev Hiem døbt den 10 ditto kaldet Jens, var til Kierke den 2 Maij. Faderne
Anders Thopsøe Jørgensen og Jens Paask fra Hiøring
Inger Poulsdatter fra Hiøring og Anders Thomsens Pige Anne
Introduceret 23 Maij

2. The confirmation record
1816 #4
Jens Pedersen, Ruberg
Parents: Peder Jensen og Hstr. Anne Marie Poulsdatter, Huusbønderfolk paa Sortfeldt i Ruberg
Født: 1802, d. 9. Apr.
Knowledge and Behaviour: Good.

[Cyndilou]

Hi Karin,
I found something.  
Remember what you found on Peder?  

The census 1801 is a little better. Here I can find a Anne Marie Poulsen, married, but her husband not mentioned at the same address.
However....Huh? Just next door, a married Peder Jensen lives without his wife. Might his age here (51) be wrong? Did the writer make a mistake?

Anne Marie Poulsdatter in census 1801:
Hjørring, Vennebjerg, Hjørring Købstad, Østergade 91, , 117, FT-1801, B8161
Maren Andersdatter 63 Enke Tilleje boende Haandarbejde  
Anne Marie Poulsdatter 35 Gift Hendes datter
og https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?bsid=26146#26146,2897191

Hjørring, Vennebjerg, Hjørring Købstad, Østergade 90, , 115, FT-1801, B8161
Jens Jørgensen 53 Gift Husbonde Avlsbruger  
Woldborg Pedersdatter 63 Gift Hans kone  
Peder Jensen 51 Gift Tjenestefolk  (fejlskrivning for 31 år?)
Ane Cathrine Andersdatter 19 Ugift Tjenestefolk  
Apellone Hansdatter 10 Ugift Tjenestefolk  
og https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?bsid=26146#26146,2897190

I think I found Peder.  It's not the one who is 51
Instead looks like he is working for this family:
https://www.danishfamilysearch.com/cid1519102

Census Year
1801
Name
Peder Jensen Sort
Gender   Male
Age   29
County   Hjørring
Hundred   Vennebjerg
Parish   Hjørring
Placename   Torvegaden 28

Born date   1772
Born Place   

House Role   Tjenestefolk
Marital Status   Married

Family No   24
Matr No   
Record No   131
Source reference   50
No of Marriages   1

Business   Tjenestefolk

Household
   Rec. no.   Name   Sex   Age   Born Year   Marital Status   Information
   119   Christen Thomsen Høgsted   Male   42   1759   Married   Husbonde Kjøbmand
   120   Æhlegaard Vilhelmine Bang   Female   37   1764   Married   Hans kone
   121   Thomas Christian Høgsted   Male   13   1788   Single   Deres barn
   122   Rasmus Bang Høgsted   Male   12   1789   Single   Deres barn
   123   Hans Christian Høgsted   Male   10   1791   Single   Deres barn
   124   Jens Nicolaii Høgsted   Male   9   1792   Single   Deres barn
   125   Johannes Peter Høgsted   Male   6   1795   Single   Deres barn
   126   Laurits Høgsted   Male   4   1797   Single   Deres barn
   127   Ane Høgsted   Female   3   1798   Single   Deres barn
   128   Carl Høgsted   Male   1   1800   Single   Deres barn
   129   Christen Henrichsen Mølbach   Male   27   1774   Single   Tjenestefolk Informator
   130   Thomas Andersen   Male   22   1779   Single   Tjenestefolk Kramboddreng
   131   Peder Jensen Sort   Male   29   1772   Married   Tjenestefolk
   132   Anders Svendsen   Male   26   1775   Married   Tjenestefolk
   133   Christen Jacobsen Bang   Male   44   1757   Single   Tjenestefolk
   134   Ane Cathrine Pedersdatter   Female   20   1781   Single   Tjenestefolk
   135   Margrethe Jensdatter   Female   20   1781   Single   Tjenestefolk
   136   Kirsten Marie Michelsdatter   Female   27   1774   Married   Tjenestefolk
Data obtained from Danish Demographic Database Ref. DDA-7535, Kipno. B8161. Parish: Hjørring Købstad. Hundred: Vennebjerg. County: Hjørring. Record no. 131 of 744. Svend-Erik Christiansen. View documentation of the data entry. View the original dataentry record at Danish Demographic Database on http://ddd.dda.dk/ddd_en.htm

I wonder how far from this is from where is wife was staying.  
They were married Oct 31 1800.  Could he have had obligations with the other family to finish up the reason they were living in different places for the Census.  What is the date of the Census?  

[Karin Andersen]

Hi Cindi. 

Yes, there he is. 

The info is from the 1801 census. http://ddd.dda.dk/asp/alle_opl.asp

Hjørring, Vennebjerg, Hjørring Købstad, Torvegaden 28, , 24, FT-1801, B8161               
Christen Thomsen Høgsted      42     Gift      Husbonde  Kjøbmand       
Æhlegaard Vilhelmine Bang      37     Gift      Hans Kone           
Thomas Christian Høgsted       13     Ugift     Deres barn           
Rasmus Bang Høgsted             12     Ugift     Deres barn           
Hans Christian Høgsted            10     Ugift     Deres barn           
Jens Nicolaii Høgsted                  9     Ugift     Deres barn           
Johannes Peter Høgsted             6     Ugift     Deres barn           
Laurits Høgsted                           4     Ugift     Deres barn           
Ane Høgsted                                3     Ugift     Deres barn           
Carl Høgsted                                1     Ugift     Deres barn           
Christen Henrichsen Mølbach    27    Ugift    Tjenestefolk  Informator       
Thomas Andersen                       22    Ugift   Tjenestefolk  Kramboddreng       
Peder Jensen Sort                      29    Gift      Tjenestefolk           
Anders Svendsen                        26   Gift      Tjenestefolk           
Christen Jacobsen Bang             44    Ugift   Tjenestefolk           
Ane Cathrine Pedersdatter         20    Ugift   Tjenestefolk           
Margrethe Jensdatter                  20    Ugift   Tjenestefolk           
Kirsten Marie Michelsdatter        27     Gift     Tjenestefolk     

If you use google maps, you can se they are not living that far away from each other. At the time it was not uncommon to live in with your employer. This guy Høgsted is a Grosser and probably had a buzy store in the middle of the city. He must have been well off as, he in his household ,have a teacher (Informator) employed  for his kids.

Hjørring city has changed over the years but anyway take a look at the maps. (Changes of the streets http://vendsysselwiki.dk/index.php/Torvegade,_Hjørring)

Torvet:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Torvet,+9800+Hjørring/@57.4613975,9.981771,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x4648ce71d53edcf1:0x69b092c986e8cc97!8m2!3d57.4613975!4d9.9839597

Østergade 91.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Østergade+91,+9800+Hjørring/@57.457398,9.9923247,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x4648ce742eb4f937:0xeb40ba1c2ca82d34!8m2!3d57.457398!4d9.9945134

Kind Regards 

Karin