Help reading names on census

[Erik Schaefer]

Please help me read the names on this 1870 census (vamdurp opslag 104), and understand what the fathers job was:

Hans Jorgen ?  (can't tell what the last name is.  I thought his name was Hans Jorgensen)
Else (Vind)   (sometimes "Wind" on other records)
Margreta Kirstine Hansen
?? Jorgine Hansen
Ane Nistine? Hansen (I've seen "Nilsine" but is "Nistine" a name?)
Jorgen Peter Boesen Hansen

Thank you in advance.

[vedhæfting slettet af admin]

[Erik Schaefer]

Could I please get help with the birth records for the parents above as well?  I cannot this churchbook at all, with the handwriting.

Vamdrup book 1826-1840:

Hans Jorgensen  (I cannot locate.  He was born 17 Aug 1831 in Vamdrup according to my records, but I don't see him)

Else Nissen Vind (same churchbook opslag 58.  Birth #20 on 12 Nov 1827

[Erik Schaefer]

I found a Hans Jorgensen on opslag 13 birth #3.  This was 17 March 1831, maybe my grandparents got the wrong month?  I cannot read his entry though, if someone could please try to read it for me.  My notes say that his father should be Jørgen Andersen Straede and mother is Margrethe Landesdatter.  I do not know where they are from

[Allan Dideriksen]

Hans Jørgensen is on "opslag 13" in the book.

[Allan Dideriksen]

Oh you found him yourself.

[Erik Schaefer]

Yes Allan, initially I just looked where I expected him to be (my great grandmother's notes have been accurate so far, but this time they failed me).  Without being able to read the entry, only his name I was not sure if it was the same Hans Jorgensen.

I found the birth record of his daughter Ane Hansen in 1866 and his name appears to be Hans Jorgen Straede.  So perhaps he used that name and later Hans Jorgensen...there seem to be different variations.  I suspect in my original post with the photo, that last name must be "Straede"..

I would still appreciate help reading the entries for Hans and Else.  I can translate it myself, I just cannot read the handwriting, it's too messy. 

[Erik Schaefer]

Hello I hate to be a pest, but I still need help reading the following entries due to handwriting:

Vamdrup churchbook 1826-1840
opslag 58.  Birth #20 on 12 Nov 1827  for Else Wind
opslag 13. Birth #3 on 17 March 1831 for Hans Jorgensen Straede

Help in Danish or English would be terrific.

Thanks again.

[Erik Schaefer]

Can anyone help here, or are these records too tough to read?

[Rick Larsen]

Hi,

From the 1880 census using the DDD, I get the following:

Ribe, Anst, Vamdrup, Ø. og V. Vamdrup, , Et Hus, 87-F1, FT-1880
Name: Age: Marital status: Occupation in household: Occupation: Birth place:
Hans Jørgensen 48  Gift Husfader, Daglejer i Agerbruget  Her i Sogn [Vamdrup Sogn]
Else Nissen Vind 52  Gift Hans Hustru  Her i Sogn [Vamdrup Sogn]
Nisstine Hansen 13  - deres Børn  Her i Sogn [Vamdrup Sogn]
Jørgen Peter Boesen Hansen 11  - deres Børn  Her i Sogn [Vamdrup Sogn]

From the 1870 census page 104, using AO, I get the following:

Hans Jørgensen Strods 39  Gift Husfader, Arbeidsmand  Her i Sogn [Vamdrup Sogn]
Else Wind 41  Gift Hans kone Husmoder  Her i Sogn [Vamdrup Sogn]
Margrete Kirstine Hansen 7 Ugift hans Børn Her i Sogn [Vamdrup Sogn]
Hansiene Jørgine Hansen 5 Ugift hans Børn Her i Sogn [Vamdrup Sogn]
Ane Nistine Hansen 3 Ugift hans Børn Her i Sogn [Vamdrup Sogn]
Jørgen Peter Bousen Hansen u1 Ugift hans Børn Her i Sogn [Vamdrup Sogn]

A native speaker may be able to contribute more to the last name, but it is most likely a stednavn (place name) that was used to set him apart from other with the same name in the parish.

Regards,
Rick

[Eva V. Ersbøll]

hello Erik

In 1870 census I read Hans Jørgensen Stræde.
The daughter´s name I read as Nistine as well. The name is not in the Copenhagen University name database, but it sounds nice! You will have to verify it in the churchbook.

As for the two baptisms:

KB Ribe Amt, Anst Herred, Vamdrup sogn, 1826-1840, opslag 58, nr. 20
and
KB Ribe Amt, Anst Herred, Vamdrup sogn, 1826-1840, opslag 13, nr. 3

I advise you to post them again (preferably one at a time) under "Hjælp til tydning". The people who help deciphering difficult texts will appreciate it if you use the exact churchbook references as stated above. You should also write a few words of explanation, mentioning what you already know or have found out. English will be fine.
Good luck.
Eva

[Lillian Møller Pavlovic]

Hi Erik,
The name of the daughter is Ane Nissine Hansen - KB Vamdrup 1862-1873 opslag 72, so not Nistine but Nissine but I think, that you have already found this.

(Some of) the text at the birth of Else,
Else -

Indsidder Nis Jensen og Hustru Catrine Maria Christens Datter i Bastrup

Aftægtsmand Niels Nielsen, Enken Bodild Catrine Niels Datter, Indsidder Søren Christensens og
.................Jørgensens Hustruer, alle af Bastrup.

I am not able to read the text at the birth of Hans but the parents seem to Jep Hanssen and Anna Pauline Jens Datter.

Regards,
Lillian

[Erik Schaefer]

Thank you so much for your help.  It will take me a few days to understand all of what you have told me and fit it in my tree.

Lillien,
Your message is most intriguing to me because according to my family documents (my great grandparents) they thought Hans' parents were Jørgen Andersen Straede and Margrethe Landesdatter.  But until your message I was unsure where Hans was born.  Now that I know, I can search for his parents.  Perhaps my great grandfather was wrong in what he was told/remembered.

For Else's family, I was told her father was Nis Iversen Vind and mother was Erika Jensen.  So again, the names you provide are very different.  I am excited to try researching further after I put all of these pieces into my tree.

Thank you all so much for helping.  I love this website community.

[Erik Schaefer]

Some more info about Hans Jorgensen Straede if I could get help reading these it might help fill in the blanks:

Confirmation:
KB Ribe Amt, Anst Herred, Vamdrup sogn, 1841-1850, opslag 162, nr. 4

Again, I can't read it, other than the dates.  Could someone attempt to pick out his parents names?  Also, I see he was born in 1831 (already knew that up above, but the record says something happened in 1833.  What was that?  That was too late to be his baptism...)

Death:
KB Ribe Amt, Anst Herred, Vamdrup sogn, 1897-1901, opslag 171, nr. 26

This is very clear and I think it lists his parents but I don't know some of these words:

"Foraldre: Bolsmand"  --What does that mean before the name Jorgen Petersen and wife Margarethe Petersen of Bastrup Mark?

[Helmer Christiansen]

Inderste: A person of common people who are tenants of a farmer or small-holder and who, without having a permanent service for his landlord, has his own household.
Husmand: Owner or keeper of a house with or without a small plot of land valued at less than 1 Tønder Hartkorn
Boelsmand: Owner or keeper of a small farm (1-3 Tønder Hartkorn)
Gaardmand: Owner or keeper of a farm (3-11 Tønder Hartkorn)

Tønder Hartkorn (barrels of hard grain) was a unit of valuation for property outside the towns.
Barrels hartkorn was originally the rent of a farm, measured in hard grains (rye, barley).

[Erik Schaefer]

Thank you Helmer  That is the most complete definition I have seen.  I will print that and save it.  I knew my ancestors who were Gaardmand were wealthier than those who were Husmand, but I did not know how detailed they classified those names!  That is very valuable to learn.

So before it lists "Boelsmand Jorgen Petersen" what is that word?  It looks something like "Foraldre" to me...is it a word for "family" or "parents"?

[Erik Schaefer]

While I am thinking about these titles, what is the difference between gaardejer and gaardmand?  The Danish dictionary I am using says they are both farm owners.  Do they mean the same thing, or is there a small difference?

[Poul-Erik Langvad]

Hi

I have looked in the churchbooks from Vamdrup and they can be very hard to read.
It makes it harder not knowing how you came up with the name Hans Jørgensen.

The Hans Jørgensen on opslag 171 Vamdrup 1897-1901 was gravedigger and his parents were Jørgen Petersen and Margrethe Petersen.
Hans Jørgensen born 17 Marts 1831 had Jep? Hansen and Anna Pauline Jensdatter as parents. His father should have been a Jørgen unless his name is Hans Jørgensen Jepsen.

In the 1834 census I find a Hans Jørgensen age 3 but he was a fosterchild.

M.v.h. Poul-Erik

[Lillian Møller Pavlovic]

Hi Erik,
At the burial of Hans Jørgensen he is called a "widower of Else Nissen Vind".
As to the confirmation of Hans he was vaccinated on the 7th May 1733. He was the son of smallholder Jørgen (Andersen?) .......? and wife Anna Margrethe Hansdatter at Bastrup Mark.

I am a bit confused as to your reasoning. You wrote earlier that you do not know where Hans was born but after my message you could start looking for his parents. I did not tell you anything!! I wrote that the parents of this Hans seem to be Jep Hansen and Anna Pauline Jens Datter! But this is not what your grandfather told you!!
I think that it would be interesting to hear what kind of information you had about your Hans Jørgensen before your first message here. If you did not know where he was born then why did you choose Vamdrup etc. etc.
Best regards,
Lillian

[Erik Schaefer]

Ok I have done this research over about 3 months and I just do little bits at a time, so perhaps my memory was bad, and maybe that is why I am not making sense.  Let me try to trace this from the start:

What my family told me:
My Great Great Grandfather was Jørgen Peter Boesen Hansen (1869-1942). His parents were Hans Jørgensen Straede (1831-1899) and Else Nissen Vind (1827-1891).  I knew the names and dates but not the places where they were born or died.  And, it turns out some of the dates were wrong.

From what my family told me, Hans Jørgensen Straede's parents should be Jørgen Petersen and Margarethe Landesdatter (do not know anything more than names).

Else's parents should be Nis Iversen Vind (1794-1873) and Erika Jensen.  Again, I don't know places or dates.

So now for my research:

When I was researching Peter Boesen Hansen and I obtained all of his census records and church records, I saw that his parents Hans and Else were from Vamdrup.  So I started there.  I found their marriage record first.

Once I established that they were married in Vamdrup, I found them on the 1860, 1870, and 1880 censuses.  All four of these documents (census and marriage) clearly list Hans Jorgensen (sometimes Straede is left off) and Else Nissen (or Else Vind or Else Nissen Vind).  It's pretty clear these are all correct.

Now I was looking for Hans' birth record, but I could not find one in 17 August of 1831 which is the date my grandparents gave me.  Instead I found 17 March 1831 which I thought could be him, and perhaps my grandparents had the wrong date.  That is where I got his birth record which I originally posted above.  But the problem is that I cannot read it to see his parents.  It is possible I got the wrong birth record, but I did not see any other Hans Jorgensen Straede born around 1831 in Vamdrup.

I later found his death record in 1899 (mentioned above) which clearly states his former wife Else Nissen Vind, so I know his death record is the correct Hans Jorgensen.  His birth record is the only one that could be incorrect, but I can't read it to know for sure, without some help.

For Else, I have her birth record (also posted above) which I cannot read.  Therefore I cannot confirm her parents names.  I have posted Else and Hans' birth records in the other forum for help from a native speaker to see if they can read it (as suggested by Eva).  In Else's burial record, it says her husband Hans Jorgensen is a gravedigger, so at least that part matches Hans's death record.

I am sorry for the long post.  It sounds to me like I may have the wrong Hans Jorgensen's birth record.

[Erik Schaefer]

I have looked for his birth record again and cannot find any other Hans Jorgensen's in Vamdrup born in 1831.  Every record I have for him (3 census, marriage, and death) all come out to 1831 as his birth year, and they all say he was born in Vamdrup.

If I have the wrong Hans Jorgensen's birth record, then I don't know where the real one is...I can't find it.  I think now I have confused myself.  ???

[Poul-Erik Langvad]

Hi

I have made some further search and also seen the confirmation on opslag 162 in Vamdrup 1841-1850.
This Hans Jørgensen had the parents: Jørgen Andersen Pedersen and Anne Margrethe Hansdatter.
This couple was married in February 1831 (I think it was the sixth).

They were serving Vilhelm von Dyring

Ribe, Anst, Vamdrup, Vester Vamdrup, en Gaard, 35, FT-1834, C5408
Vilhelm von Dyring   53    Gift      Kammerherre og Oberstleut.   
Marthe Mortensen Dyring   55    Gift      hans Kone   
Caroline Frederika Dyring   14    Ugift      deres Børn   
Sophie Vilhelmine Dyring   13    Ugift      deres Børn   
Ernst Frederik Dyring   12    Ugift      deres Børn   
Ernstinde Henriette Dyring   10    Ugift      deres Børn   
Birgitte Ricter??   27    Ugift      Huusjomf.   
Caroline Hagen   27    Ugift      Guvernante   
Hr. I. A. H. Kerstens??   30    Ugift      Huuslærer   
August Carsten   10    Ugift      Pleiesøn   
Jørgen Anders Pedersen   26    Gift      Dagleier   
Magrethe Hansdatter   26    Gift      hans Kone   
Peder Hansen   23    Ugift         
Hans Madsen   34    Gift         
Niels Pedersen   39    Gift         
Niels Thomsen   34    Gift         
Niels Michelsen   19    Ugift         
Johan Skeen??   26    Ugift         
Kerstine Rasmusdatter   21    Ugift         
Marie Christensdatter   40    Ugift         
Christian Frederik Palm??   63    Ugift

This could be their son:

Ribe, Anst, Vamdrup, Søegaard Mk, et Huus, 62, FT-1834, C5408
Jens Peder Schou   33    Gift      lever af sin fæstede Jordlod.   
Maren Pedersdatter   40    Gift      hans Kone   
Anne Marie Jensdatter   9    Ugift      deres Børn   
Jeppe Schou   6    Ugift      deres Børn   
Kirsten Schou   2    Ugift      deres Børn   
Hans Andersen   11    Ugift      Pleieb#rn   
Peder Jørgensen   5    Ugift      Pleiebørn   
Hans Jørgensen   3    Ugift      Pleiebørn

The fostermother could be Jørgens sister.

The confirmation record tells Hans Jørgensens birthday was 17 Marts 1831. It also tells that he was vacc.(inoculated) 27 maj 1833 by Rosendehl.

The churchbooks from Vamdrup around 1800 are very bad and if you want to be sure you will need someone to lookup the entries in "Hovedministerialbogen". The "Kontraministerialbogen" should be a copy of the first but it may be easier to read. Futhermore additional entries had been made to the book 1826-1840 as late as 22 jan 1908 (opslag 2).

I did not see this thread untill I saw your entry on "Hjælp til tydning". Your headline there had the location this one has not.

M.v.h. Poul-Erik

[Erik Schaefer]

Poul-Erik thank you so much...it seems quite the mystery now...

So, it sounds as if the mother was 8 months pregnant when they married...but I cannot understand why they would give their child up at such a young age.  Was that common?  Were they so poor that they could not support the child?  I'm a little confused by that.

I see in the FT-1834 that you posted, there is a Peder Jorgensen above Hans who is also a foster child.  I suppose that could be an older brother, but that would have been nearly 3 years before the parents were married...

I am also confused because up above you wrote:

The Hans Jørgensen on opslag 171 Vamdrup 1897-1901 was gravedigger and his parents were Jørgen Petersen and Margrethe Petersen.
Hans Jørgensen born 17 Marts 1831 had Jep? Hansen and Anna Pauline Jensdatter as parents. His father should have been a Jørgen unless his name is Hans Jørgensen Jepsen.

But the names "Jep? Hansen" and "Anna Pauline Jensdatter" don't really look like the parents or foster parents you listed above...so that is confusing me as well.

How would I request someone to look at the "Hovedministerialbogen" or "Kontraministerialbogen"?  I obviously need some help here, and I am not sure how to ask for help.

PS-What kind of vaccinations did they do in 1833?  From what I could find on wikipedia the only vaccine at the time was for smallpox.  Is that what they were inoculating against?

[Poul-Erik Langvad]

Hi

If you try to go one more generation back you will find Jørgen Andersen Pedersen baptized in Vamdrup 12 juni 1808 as son of Peder Michelsen Stræde and Kjesten Andersdatter (Vamdrup 182-1814 opslag 173 and 174). This indicates that it is the right one we have found.

And it seems that Peder was a brother to Hans. I think they just lived in another house than their parents. They were both confirmeret as sons of Jørgen Pedersen smallholder on Bastrup Mark and wife Margrethe Hansdatter.

Perhaps you should wait asking someone to look up the (Hoved)Ministerialbog untill you have found as much as you can using AO. The books from 1664-1734, 1760-1802 and 1802-1814 is far worse and you may need some help with them too.

And yes it was smallpox and it was compulsory.

M.v.h. Poul-Erik

[Erik Schaefer]

I cannot thank you enough for this work.

I just wish I knew why the children didn't live with their parents and why the parents had two children out of wedlock...so many questions I will never know.

[Erik Schaefer]

Poul-Erik,

I don't know if you saw this topic in the other forum.  But someone has attempted to translate the birth records for Hans and Else.

I am still concerned that the names on Hans' baptismal record do not seem to match the names you are finding on the census (neither the parents nor the foster family).

http://www.slaegtogdata.dk/forum/index.php/topic,11543.0.html

Have you any idea why the parents are not matching from baptism to the confirmation?  Is it possible he had a 2nd foster family?  Or could this be a simple transcription error by Ralph? 

[Poul-Erik Langvad]

Hi

I do not know what is wrong but there has been some mistakes.

Top entry on opslag 12 Hans Jessen Langvad has the wrong parents. His parents Jess Hansen Langvad and Bodild Katrine Pedersdatter are on opslag 13.

I think right part of opslag 11 and left part of opslag 13 is the right combination.
It makes Hans Jørgensens parents: Tjeneste(person?) Jørgen Andersen Pedersen og Husrue Margrethe Hansdatter paa Søegaard Mark.

M.v.h. Poul-Erik

[Lillian Møller Pavlovic]

I agree with Poul-Erik. You can see the numbers of the pages written in the church book. Page no. 10  is "opslag no. 13" and page no. 11 is "opslag no. 12".

Lillian

[Erik Schaefer]

Thank you for explaining that.  Is there someone through AO that I should contact to get those pages fixed so future researchers don't have the same problem I had?

[Poul-Erik Langvad]

I have e-mailed AO about the problem. They may correct the problem but you have to erase the pictures from your own computer to see it. But be patient it can take time.

M.v.h. Poul-Erik

[Erik Schaefer]

Thank you Poul-Erik.

I took a look at (Vamdrup 1802-1814 opslag 173 and 174) for the baptism of Jørgen Anders Pedersen, but I honestly cannot read the handwriting.  Can you tell from this document how old his parents were, and where they were from?

Right now, I am just trying to research as far back as I can to get the information to my grandparents.  I will come back later and get all of the census records and other details.  It will probably take me years to fully research all these families, and my grandparents don't have that long to wait.