I have started looking for probate records in my research and am having difficulty. The court names are different than the sogn/herred. For example, if I want to look for a probate record for a person that lived in Mern, Bårse, Præstø, what myndighed or court would cover that area? How would I know without being very familiar with local geography? Is there a gazetteer or something similar that show which godsskifter covers which parish? In the records repositories, I just see a long list of unfamiliar names and don't know which to look in. Thanks for any guidance.
An overview in 'wiki.dis-danmark' of the Mern Parish (https://www.wiki.dis-danmark.dk/index.php/Mern_Sogn) - in Danish only - displays the estates in the parish. The estates would handle the probate process - and other court procedures - (until 1849 I believe)
Godser med fæstegods i sognet
- Høvdingsgaard
- Oremandsgård
+ Lilliendal Estate [not mentioned in the overview]
If the probates are not handled by the estates, you should look into these jurisdictions:
LAK Retsbetjente (http://www.msff.se/Forska/Danmark/docs/landsarkiv/LAK-Retsbetjente.pdf)
Mern
- 1718 Bårse herred, Jungsh.birk
- 1718 - 1720 Hammer-Bårse-Jungsh.birk
- 1720 - 1809 Vordingborg rytterdistrikts birk
- 1809 - 1919 Vordingborg nordre birk
Hi Kerry
You can atke a look here http://www.aneopslag.dk/ click at Alle Registredee personer and choose letter for the surname of Your person - then look through the list.
Lars Who owns thw sitw has many people form Mern.
You can also give ud a name and deathdater in this thread - so will I see if I ca help You
Thank you Britta and Lis for your help. So wiki.dis-danmark is the best/only site to find the estate(s) that cover each parish?
The particular person I'm seeking information on is Kirsten Jensdatter (https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Jensdatter-1529) who was born on 15 Mar 1810 in Mern. Her parents were Jens Nielsen and Bodil Hansdatter.
* https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QG8L-NZWQ
* https://www.danishfamilysearch.com/cid7664292
* https://www.danishfamilysearch.com/cid14669316
Mern church records aren't available before 1814. I've identified one couple named Jens Nielsen and Bodil Hansdatter in Mern. The big problem is that they have a daughter also named Kirsten who was born in 1816.
* http://ao.salldata.dk/vis1.php?side=83&bsid=150777
* https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QG8C-MC78
* https://www.danishfamilysearch.com/cid3141016
* https://www.danishfamilysearch.com/cid5253748
Because they have a daughter named Kerstin, I've ruled them out as the parents of my Kerstin Jensdatter, but they're the only lead I had.
HI Kerry
The Confirmation for Kirsten in Hammer says she is born in Hammer Parish.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QG8L-NZWQ
In the Census 1834,1840,1845,1850,1860 her name is Kirstine Jensdatter in Rønnebæk Married in Hammer 9th February 1838:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-894W-5QRB?i=255&cc=2078555&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AQG82-5QWN
I think this is a mix of two families
CitatThe Confirmation for Kirsten in Hammer says she is born in Hammer Parish.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QG8L-NZWQ
No, the confirmation record (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L94W-57HN?i=197&cc=2078555&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AQG8L-NZWQ) displays that she was
baptised in Allerslev 18. March 1810.
The parents' marriage was recorded in the church book of Allerslev, Bårse, Præstø:
Jens Nielsen in Rekkende[Allerslev Parish] and Bodil Hansdatter in the Allerslev vicarage were engaged on 11.3.1809 and married on 7.7.1809 in Jungshoved Church (https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?bsid=147936#147936,24425943) left hand side.
The younger Kirsten Jensdatter had a boy Niels Pedersen *17.8.1847 Hammer, Hammer, Præstø (https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?bsid=150778#150778,25006829). Please notice that 'Lars Rasmussen af Rønnebæk' was one of the witnesses.
Præstø, Hammer, Hammer, Hammer By, 43 En Gaard, 43, FT-1850, C9305
Navn: Alder: Status: Stilling i familien: Erhverv: Fødested:
Jens Nielsen 68 Gift Gaardmand og Huusfader Allersløv Sogn, Præstø Amt
Bodil Hansdatter 64 Gift Hans Kone Jungshoved Sogn, Præstø Amt
Kirsten Jensdatter 32 Ugift deres Børn Her i Sognet
Niels Pedersen 3 - Hendes Søn [Kirsten Jensdatter] Do [Her i Sognet] Hans Jensen 39 Ugift deres Børn Do [Her i Sognet]
Ane Jensdatter 31 Ugift deres Børn Do [Her i Sognet]
Anders Jensen 27 Ugift deres Børn, indkaldt til Krigstjenesten Do [Her i Sognet]
Peder Hansen 23 Ugift deres Tjenestekarl, indkaldt til Krigstjenesten Do [Her i Sognet]
To obtain the final proof of the family relations, you should find probate records of the parents Jens Nielsen and Bodil Hansdatter, if possible.
Wow. That is EXTREMELY helpful.
I'm confident that the Kirstine Jensdatter who was married to Lars Rasmussen was born in Mar 1810 based on records from Iowa, USA (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-6274-MKV?cc=1325221&wc=9B7Z-DPL%3A1030552001%2C1034894801%2C1034898701 "Christina Rasmussen", https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/117404532). Her Denmark census records that have a birth place all say Mern.
Now that you've pointed out that she was baptized in Allerslev and her parents were married there eight months prior to her birth, the pieces are all falling into place.
Thank you!
Karen Larsdatter *21.5.1847 (https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?bsid=155226#155226,25928190) to Lars Rasmussen and Kirstine Jensdatter in Rønnebæk, Hammer, Præstø: among the witnesses was Pige Kirsten Jensdatter af Lou [Lov in Hammer Parish - a small village close to Riselod (https://historiskatlas.dk/@55.1606805,11.8507015,15z?m!55) where the parents lived.
The brother Hans Jensen *20.2.1812 (https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?bsid=150776#150776,25006362) - father Gmd. Jens Nielsen Riiselodden i Hammer - left baptism no 2 from the bottom
I have found the birth records for most of Lars Rasmussen's and Kirstine Jensdatter's children; the links are posted on Lars Rasmussen's Wikitree profile, https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Rasmussen-2383, although I have to rely on the transcription for the details.
Does the marriage record of her parents that you found, https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?bsid=147936#147936,24425943, say where Bodil Hansdatter was from?
I can make out that Jens Nielsen was from Rekkende. I believe this is his 1801 census record, https://www.danishfamilysearch.com/cid1120282, although Danish Family Search has him attached to the wrong family. His father, Niels Andersen, has the suffix Dyr?, on the census record, https://www.danishfamilysearch.com/cid1120280. What does Dyr signify?
Edit: Also, is Riiselodden a location or an additional surname?
Riselod (https://historiskatlas.dk/@55.1606805,11.8507015,15z?m!55) is a location, where the parents lived.
Bodil Hansdatter was serving at the Allerslev vicarage (https://historiskatlas.dk/@55.0793990,12.0883306,15z?m!55) situated in Rekkende :-) - the place of birth not mentioned. I'll have a look into Jungshoved Parish church books.
Added: might be this girl Bodil/Boel
Præstø, Baarse, Jungshoved, Staurebye,Joenshoveds sogn, Huusfolk, 11, FT-1787, B0013
Navn: Alder: Status: Stilling i familien: Erhverv: Fødested:
Hans Rasmussen 28 Gift Husbonde Huusmand og Bonde - Skomager
Kirsten Rasmusdatter 26 Gift madmoder
Boel Hansdatter 2 Ugift datter
Confirmation in Jungshoved, Bårse, Præstø 1798:
Boel Hansdatter (https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?bsid=152232#152232,25330791) - Hans Rasmussens Datter af Stavreby - døbt 5. marts 1786
Her baptism in 1786 (https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?bsid=152231#152231,25330647) - 4. column no 2.
Præstø, Baarse, Allerslev, Rechende Bye, husmand, 9.fam., FT-1801, B2136
Navn: Alder: Status: Stilling i familien: Erhverv: Fødested:
Niels Andersen
Dyr 51 Gift mand husmand med jord og hugger
Maren Anders Datter 50 Gift hans kone
Jens Nielsen 19 Ugift Deres søn
CitatWhat does Dyr signify?
an interesting question ;)
This brick wall isn't just coming down. It's being obliterated. I can't thank you enough Britta.
I don't see a baptism record from 1518 Mar 1810 for Kirstine Jensdatter in Allerslev, do you? https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?bsid=147936#147936,24425855
These people are too intertwined. The other Kerstin Jensdatter, born in Hammer, was still living with her parents in the 1850 census. Father Jens Nielsen was born in 1782 in Allerslev. Mother Bodil Hansdatter was born in 1786 in Jungshoved!
Jens Nielsen: https://www.danishfamilysearch.com/cid7691292
Bodil Hansdatter: https://www.danishfamilysearch.com/cid7691293
The census does say that Kerstin is their daughter, doesn't it?
I guess I need to ask the question, they wouldn't have daughters named Kirstine and Kerstin would they?
CitatI don't see a baptism record from (https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?bsid=147936#147936,24425855) 1518 Mar 1810 for Kirstine Jensdatter in Allerslev, do you?
NoCitatThe census does say that Kerstin is their daughter, doesn't it?
Yes, that's right:
Præstø, Hammer, Hammer, Hammer By, en Gaard, 36, FT-1845, B4793
Navn: Alder: Status: Stilling i familien: Erhverv: Fødested:
Jens Nielsen 63 Gift Gaardmand Alsløv s. P.A.
Bodil Hansdatter 59 Gift hans kone Junhde!! s. P.A.
Hans Jensen 33 Ugift deres børn her i sognet
Kirsten Jensdatter 29 Ugift
deres børn* her i sognet
their childrenAne Jensen 27 Ugift deres børn her i sognet
Peder Hansen 18 Ugift Tjenestedreng her i sognet
Præstø, Hammer, Hammer, Hammer By, 43 En Gaard, 43, FT-1850, C9305
Navn: Alder: Status: Stilling i familien: Erhverv: Fødested:
Jens Nielsen 68 Gift Gaardmand og Huusfader Allersløv Sogn, Præstø Amt
Bodil Hansdatter 64 Gift Hans Kone Jungshoved Sogn, Præstø Amt
Kirsten Jensdatter 32 Ugift
deres Børn Her i Sognet
Niels Pedersen 3 - Hendes Søn [Kirsten Jensdatter] Do [Her i Sognet]
Hans Jensen 39 Ugift deres Børn Do [Her i Sognet]
Ane Jensdatter 31 Ugift deres Børn Do [Her i Sognet]
Anders Jensen 27 Ugift deres Børn, indkaldt til Krigstjenesten Do [Her i Sognet]
Peder Hansen 23 Ugift deres Tjenestekarl, indkaldt til Krigstjenesten Do [Her i Sognet]
CitatI guess I need to ask the question, they wouldn't have daughters named Kirstine and Kerstin would they?
Kirstine and Kirsten, it's possible. On the background of records found, I will not reject this possibility.
Hej
Nu Kiggede jeg på konfirmation igen og - må indrømme jeg fik kigget på en forkert post. Hun er angiveligt øfdt i Allerslev. :'(
CitatHun er angiveligt øfdt i Allerslev. :'(
The church book entry says that she was
baptised in Allerslev
Sorry I keep getting the spelling wrong; it's obviously important in this case. Kirstine and Kirsten aren't just spelling variants of the same name? I thought the only time a name would be repeated was if a child died.
Some times Kirstine and Kirsten might be spelling variants of the same name :)
In this case I believe that there were two daughters: one Kirstine and one Kirsten - records found indicates that this was a possibility.
Big problem. In confirmation record, the older one born in 1810 is spelled Kirsten: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L94W-57HN?i=197&cc=2078555
Additional record from 1817 for Kirsten Jensdatter, daughter of Jens Nielsen in Hammer in 1817 (#9): https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L94W-2FB9?i=119&cc=2078555. Is this the vaccinerede? If so, should all the children of the parish be listed? The older Kirstine/Kirsten Jensdatter would have been ~ age 7.
Two versions of marriage record:
* https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-894W-5QRB?i=257&cc=2078555
* https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/en/billedviser?bsid=203999#203999,38695906
In the second, what is the description following Jens Nielsen's name in the 3rd and 4th columns? Is there anything useful in the last column?
It appears that Bodil Hansdatter died in Dec 1853 and Jens Nielsen died in Oct 1857 in Hammer sogn.
* http://ao.salldata.dk/vis1.php?side=344&bsid=150778
* http://ao.salldata.dk/vis1.php?bsid=150778&side=321
Is there any other identifying information in those records?
CitatIn the second, what is the description following Jens Nielsen's name in the 3rd and 4th columns? Is there anything useful in the last column?
On the marriage record 1838: Pigen Kirstine Jensdatter 27½ Aar gl. af Hammer Risegaard
[the farm Jens Nielsen owned] Witness: Gaardmand Jens Nielsen af Hammer Risegaard
CitatIs there any other identifying information in those records?
Burial records of Bodil and Hans: she was the wife of Gmd. Jens Nielsen [Gmd Jens Nielsen Hustru i Risegaarden]. He was Aftægtsgaardmand in Risegaarden.
The court record on the farm:
Matr.nr. 19a Hammer By, Hammer (https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?bsid=147612#147612,24325571) = Risegård [Risegaard] which Jens Nielsen bought in June 1811.
Hello Kerry and helpers.
I have spend some hours in your relatives company this afternoon and evening.
Kirsten or Kirstine Jensdatter - we will never find out the exact spelling of her name:
Born in 1810 and baptised (not born) on the 18th (not on the 15th) of marts 1810 was most probably born in Mern Parish (possibly in Nørre Mern). She is neither born in Allerslev nor in Jungshoved parish i 1809-1811.
Konfirmation in Hammer parish on the 10th of april 1825.
Her parents are Jens Nielsen Dyhr and Boel or Bodil Hansdatter, that endet living at the farm Risegaarden in Hammer parish.
And yes Kirsten/Kirstine had as sister with the same name.
Born in 1816 in Hammer parish.
Konfirmation in Allerslev parish in 1832. At that time she served husmand (smallholder) Peder Hansen in Rekkende. Peder Hansen was married to her grandmother - mothers mother - Maren Andersdatter.
In 1847 she got a son Niels Pedersen. The father of the son was Peder Hansen in Lov, Hammer parish. And I´m sure it´s the same Peder Hansen that she married in Hammer parish in 1853. Peder Hansen was born in Lov in 1827 as son of smallholder Hans Madsen and Karen Hansdatter.
In 1860 Kirsten and Peder Hansen lived in a house close to Risegaarden, Hammer parish. In 1880 they lived in Pederstrup, Mogenstrup parish.
I have the knowledge of about 60 of Kirsten Jensdatters ancestors. We share some of them.
Please look at the attached file.
Lars
Hello Lars,
Thanks so much for your research and the nicely sourced document you provided. I look forward to looking at it in detail.
I'm still mentally stuck on two daughters having the same name. Do you have any explanation for how this could happen or know of any other examples where a child was given the same name when the first one was still alive? I could understand it if the mother changed, but that also does not appear to be the case.
It's all very interesting, but still frustrating.
Do you know the meaning of Dyhr?
Kerry
Hello Kerry.
It´s far from common with siblings of the same name - but it´s seen in rare cases.
People with respect for their family did their best to name their children after grandparents, formerly deceased spouses, dead siblings and so on.
If a child was weak - expected to die - parents some times renamed a younger sibling - in advance. Could be the case with Kirsten.
And the Kirsten, that one or both Kirsten Jensdatters was named after, was most probably their fathers mothers Kirsten Rasmusdatter in Stavreby, Jungshoved parish.
And oops, I made a mistake: Kirsten born 1816 was in the house of her fathers mother - not mothers mother - at the time of konfirmation i 1832.
Dyhr - or Dyr in todays spelling - means Deer or Animal.
Lars
Another question for you generous collaborators; since he apparently lived in Risegård and was buried in Hammer sogn, where do you think his probate record might be located?
The Probate should be in Vordingborg Søndre Birk (https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=15288411#129951,33819313)
Unfortunately the period between 1848 - 1868 inclusive is missing.
Ah .. the protocol 'Skifteprotokol' (https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=15288405#129954,33819826) is available.
The last records are per ultimo december 1853 :'(
Hi Kerry.
I Have looked in the registers to Probates - but i cannot finde either Boel or the Husbond mentionend - Unfortunately.
Thank you Britta and Lis. Your help is very much appreciated and I feared that would be the answer.
Hello Kerry
I´m curious about Risegaarden, so I have been looking at historical maps.
At the map originally drawn i 1806 - may have later corrections og additions. At that map Risegaarden with Matr.nr. 19 is situated to the far north of the land belonging til Hammer - "Hammer ejerlav".
https://hkpn.gst.dk/mapviewer.aspx?type=o1k_oekort&id=1716&elav=0280153 (https://hkpn.gst.dk/mapviewer.aspx?type=o1k_oekort&id=1716&elav=0280153)
You reach the historical maps here: https://hkpn.gst.dk/ (https://hkpn.gst.dk/)
At "Ejerlav" you enter the name of the village. In this case I entered "Hammer", that gave som hits - amongst them "Hammer by, Hammer".
The map you choose pops up in a new window.
At the top right at "Navigation" you can chooce between 5 tools to pan, zoom in and out, . .
At the 1860 map Rissegaarden has matr.nr 19a:
https://hkpn.gst.dk/mapviewer.aspx?type=o2k_oekort&id=18250&elav=0280153 (https://hkpn.gst.dk/mapviewer.aspx?type=o2k_oekort&id=18250&elav=0280153)
The present address is Risegårdsvej 4, 4700 Næstved - 55.163677 North, 11.864289 East.
Lars
Citat fra: Britta Hansen Dato 13 Nov 2019 - 22:20
The court record on the farm:
Matr.nr. 19a Hammer By, Hammer (https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?bsid=147612#147612,24325571) = Risegård [Risegaard] which Jens Nielsen bought in June 1811.
You will find several pictures of the farm on Danmark set fra Luften (http://www.kb.dk/danmarksetfraluften/#zoom=18&lat=55.16390586186177&lng=11.863930821418762) source: Sylvest Jensen Luftfoto
A map more - 1771:
https://hkpn.gst.dk/mapviewer.aspx?type=rytterkort&id=88&elav=12 (https://hkpn.gst.dk/mapviewer.aspx?type=rytterkort&id=88&elav=12)
The area isn´t cultivated.
"Hammers Overdrev" - Hammer Common.
"Risene kaldet" - called the scrubs.
So the name Risegaard derives from the name Risene - the scrub. The area has been sparsely covered with trees and bushes - forrest spoiled by woodcutting and cattle and pigs grassing the area for centuries.
Lars
Those maps and photos are all very interesting. I'm wondering if there is some genealogically significant information in that land entry you found, Britta? https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?bsid=147612#147612,24325571. For example, is that "Kirstine Jensdatter" as the first entry in 1853? What is the word before Kirstine?
Wrong answer -sorry
Kerry,
In 1853 a mortgage 1.000 Rbdlr + a mortgage 400 Rbdlr [Rigsbankdaler (https://ordnet.dk/ods/ordbog?query=rigsbankdaler) – the currency in DK at that time] were recorded in the property.
Jens Nielsen lent money from Ole Klausens Enke Ellen Kirstine ....datter in Svendstrup.
Thanks Britta. I was hopeful.