Question about Fæsteprotokoller

[Mike Jones]

Hello,

I was wondering if someone might help me with information from the Fæsteprotokoller.

Is there away to determine if my ancestor Christen Nielsen is the person listed in these records from Norre Hvlasoe.

Thanks Mike

[David Peterson]

Mike:

Did you mean to include a reference link or perhaps attach an image?

A reference link would be best, as it allows us to better examine the surrounding context of the entry.
Also, it would be very helpful if you would also supply the basic information you know about Christen Nielsen (birth, death, marriage) and what records that information comes from.

Thanks.
David Peterson

[Mike Jones]

Thanks David for getting back to me. I thought I posted the link, lets try it again.

Information on my ancestor Christian Nielsen is as follows...

Born around 1739-1741
Died around November 1, 1791 in Hvalsoe

Married 1st to Bodil Olesdatter around 1761 she died in September 1787 in Norre Hvalsoe.
2nd he married Maren Larsdatter in 1787 in Kirke Saby.



https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1942-29969-22656-73?cc=2015318&wc=M9MN-1NV:n1109326142

If you click on the link it should be image 79 of 554...its on the very last part of the page and continues on with image 80...You will notice on 80 another entry for Christen Nielsen. Also on the same image it list a Niels Olesen from Tadere Molle, this too is a ancestor of mine his son Kield Nielsen Hvalsoe, married a Karen Christensdatter the daughter of the Christen Nielsen listed above.

I thank you in advance.

Mike Jones
USA

[David Peterson]

The fæsteprotokol is not a particularly bountiful source for family information.  It depends on the circumstances, as there is no guarantee that a lease is passed to a family member.  If we are to connect a particular tenant with a person in another record, usually the location and the family connections of the possible candidates are key elements.  So that is why context is important, not only what is found in the record itself, but also in the all the other records for the family in that same time period.  I was hoping that you would indicate the other records you have found....

The large amount of text in an individual fæstebrev can be daunting, even for someone that is a native speaker (which I am not). They use outdated handwriting, language and legal terms.  The fæsteprotokol index can be a big help in knowing some of the basic details.  Christen Nielsen is indexed at image 545.
The entries columns are Name, Town and previous tenant, leased or rented, year, page.
#2 "Chresten Nielsen", "N. Valsø" [Nørre Hvalsø] / hus / Anders Hansen, fæste, 1776 20/4, Page 226 [image 79]
#3 "Chresten Nielsen", "K. Valsø" [Kirke Hvalsø] / hus / hs. Fader [his father]: Niels Knudsen, fæste, 1776 1/5, page 227 [image 80]

It is difficult for me to read the full text, but the first appears to call Christen "ungkarl", which makes me believe he was unmarried. It also indicates that the previous tenant had died and that his wife remarried.  But it is not clear to me whether she married someone else, or might be marrying Christen.... The location is the village of Nørre Hvalsø, which otherwise is where "your" Christen Nielsen later lives and dies.

The second is already different in that it is at the village of Kirke Hvalsø.  It also calls him an "ungkarl" and says that he took on the lease at the death of his father.

As you can see in the index, there are other entries for "Chresten Nielsen" in the following years.  Without trying to identify the location and family of all these, it is not obvious if they are the same or different men.  Even looking at the 1787 census doesn't clear it up much: there are three men named "Christen Nielsen", all in Nørre Hvalsø, one unmarried and living with his parents and only the one, who appears to be your man, that would have been old enough in 1776 to take on a lease contract.

1787 Census
roskilde, Voldborg, Hvalsø, Nørre Hvalsøe Bye, , 77, FT-1787, C2257
Navn:    Alder:    Civilstand:      Stilling i husstanden:      Erhverv:      Fødested:
Christen Nielsen   48    Gift   Mand   Huusmand og Daglejer   
Bodild Olsdatter   65    Gift   Konen

He appears with his wife and is classified as a "Husmand", which usually indicates that he had a house as the result of a tenancy lease  (fæstebrev) with the local estate.

However at his burial in 1791 at age 50 (opslag 6), he appears to be identified as "Indsidder i N. Hv.".

Social standing was very important and based on one's occupational class and land.  An "Indsidder" had no land (whether owned or rented) and only had something as small as a room or as large as a small house that was rented or otherwise arranged from a husmand or gårdmand.  The husmand and gårdmand had a lease with the estate, the Indsidder did not.  So it seems that either his standing was wrongly indicated (in one record or the other) or that he had somehow lost his contracted house.  When a man got too old to maintain the property, it was common for the estate to transfer the lease to someone else, but with the provision that the original couple be provided for as "aftægtsfolk".  The new tenant could be a relative, such as a son or son-on-law, but not always.

Unfortunately, the index-by-name for the new tenant is not so helpful in figuring out who assumed the tenancy at the death of either of these two men, since it is not indexed by the name of the previous tenant. Probably the best that could be done is to try to find out when they died and look chronologically in that timeframe for a new lease that identifies them as the previous tenant.  Unfortunately, there could be a gap timewise, as tenancy could have been changed prior to death, or perhaps delayed while the widow continued to live on the property.

Due to the differing locations, marital state, social status of the men in these records, it is still questionable as to whether the Christen Nielsen who died in Nørre Hvalsø in 1791 is one of those tenants.

From reviewing your data and the parish/census records, I would conclude that:

The date of birth is not given because there are no parish records prior to 1771. There probably was a fire that destroyed them. The range of birth years come from ages given in the 1787 census and at death.  This assumes that he was born in Kirke Hvalsø parish, which may not be a correct assumption, unless there is some other record that indicates the location of his birth.
The date of the first marriage is not given for the same reason. Again, the location of the marriage is an assumption.  If Bodil was not from the same parish, the marriage could have easily occurred in another parish.  Is the date estimated from the birth of a child??
Due to the difference in age, there is a strong possibility that Christen's first marriage is not Bodil's first marriage; she may have been a widow.

Clarifying and resolving the discrepancies would involve gathering the complete known information about his location and family:

Where did the family reside at the birth of each child?  (The 1771 cut-off doesn't give much before this, but what about the children's confirmations?)
What social standing/occupation was associated with Christen at each birth/confirmation?
Was his first wife Bodil indeed a widow, and if so, who was her previous husband? Was he a tenant of the estate and if so, what happened to his lease at death (or at the remarriage of his wife)? . As noted above, is there any possibility that Bodil was the widow of the previous tenant of the first entry, Anders Hansen, and then she married Christen?
Did Christen have a lease at the time of the 1787 census, but lose/transfer it before his death in 1791?
If he had a lease, what happened to it at or prior to his death? Did he have sons or sons-in-law that possibly assumed the lease?  He was not particularly old at death.  If he had a lease, could illness have caused him to lose it prematurely?
What happened to his second wife, Maren?
In 1801 there are three women named Maren Larsdatter in the parish. Was one of these his wife? Only one is listed as a widow, and she is living under the support of a family headed by "jordløs" (landless) husmand Morten Nielsen. What is the nature of his lease?
Another Maren, is in a second marriage to a Johan Pettersen, but she has a child Bodil Christensdatter from her first marriage.  This second husband is an "Inderste", same as an "Indsidder", with no house or land to his name.  Without knowing the children of her family, I would suspect that she is the remarried widow of Christen and this daughter was named after her father Christen's first wife...

David Peterson

[Mike Jones]

Thank you again David for the very good explanation.

I will try to answer some of the questions you had.

I have looked through the confirmations for Kirke Hvalsoe and I didn't see any thing, that's not to say it isn't listed, I just have a hard time reading the writing.


I looked again in the fæsteprotokol index and found a Christopher Sonnesen whom took over the lease of Christen Nielsen in Norre Hvalsoe in 1787.. Here is the link to the record.

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1971-29969-18080-79?cc=2015318&wc=M9MN-1NV:n1109326142

I also found this record online at the very end in mentions Christopher Sonnesen, who was the one who took over the lease...I wonder if there is any connection and what between these two.

Christen Nielsen inds i N.Hvalsoe   4 Nov 1791      pg 664 671
2WIFE:   Maren Larsdtr
CH:      Bodil Christensdtr       3
1WIFE:   Bodil Olsdtr
CH:      Niels Christensen        27 tien sin svoger Kield Nielsen hollaendren i Knapstrup
         Karen Christensdtr       = sr. Kield Nielsen Hvalsoe i Knapstrup
wgd: Lars Nielsen gmd i Kidserup/ / Morten Mogensen gmd i N.Hvalsoe  guard: Christopher Sonnesen hmd i N.Hvalsoe
[Sonnerup gods probates; Book 1 1722-1797; film 41358]


Regards
Mike Jones

[David Peterson]

Mike:
I didn't forget about this, but got involved with other things.  I think that I can point out some things about these entries, but most of the text I cannot read/understand.  Perhaps you should make a separate request that someone else look at them.  (not a new thread, but a separate entry in this thread specifically asking for transcription of specific parts....)

In the fæstebrev for Christopher Sonnesøn, it says beginning in line 4, "det Huus udi Nørre Hvalsøs Bye paa Roskilde Amt, som Christen Nielsen erst[?] til foren.[?] beboede, og til ..."
"the house in Nørre Hvalsø village in Roskilde Amt that Christen Nielsen ... resided ...."  Then I am lost, only able to read a word here and there without a sense of the whole meaning.  It seems that Christen Nielsen was the previous tenant, but I am not sure what the rest of this phrase, and the phrase following, are trying to say and whether they give any clue as to why he is no longer the tenant.  It does not say "fradøde", which would indicate that he relinquished it due to death.

It would seem that this is the same Christen Nielsen that took on the lease of the house in 1776 because none of the other Christen Nielsen entries in the index would fit the timeframe.  But this doesn't necessarily mean that that Christen Nielsen who dies in 1791 is the same man.  The circumstances are pretty good to make that assumption, but it doesn't come right out and say it anywhere.

In the census of 1787 (taken in July), both are listed as "husmand".  Perhaps this is just an oversight...

By 1801, Christopher Sonnesen is in neighboring Tølløse parish (seen in census there), so he would no longer be leasing the house in Nørre Hvalsø.

The excerpt you have indicated is an extract of a probate register (skifteprotokol).  It looks like one of the extracts that Aurelia Clemmons did, and indeed I find it at her site.  Her abbreviations are sometimes cryptic, and anyways, it is always good to double-check it with the original.  I had thought to mention a probate before, but didn't go that far...  Whereas we are lucky if the fæsteprotokol mentions family connections, the skifteprotokol almost always does, because it indicates who were the heirs, which were normally the surviving spouse and children.  Typically, it lists all known living children. (And it will list dead children that themselves had children, as the grandchildren then become heirs.)

This entry is a little unusual in that it is actually from TWO skiftebrever, one on 04 Nov 1791 and one on 30 Dec 1791.  I don't know why there were two "sessions" because I can't read enough of them.

The first is at
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1961-29895-23628-73?cc=2015318&wc=M9MN-1NL:695027411
(image 339)
And the second is at image 343.

The extract indicates:
Christen Nielsen inds i N.Hvalsoe   4 Nov 1791      pg 664 671
indsidder [lodger without house or land];  pg 664 and 671 are the original pages in the book, corresponding to images 339 and 343 in the digital copy

2WIFE:   Maren Larsdtr
CH:      Bodil Christensdtr       3
With his second wife Maren, he has a 3-year-old daughter, Bodil.

1WIFE:   Bodil Olsdtr
CH:      Niels Christensen        27 tien sin svoger Kield Nielsen hollaendren i Knapstrup
         Karen Christensdtr       = sr. Kield Nielsen Hvalsoe i Knapstrup
He had a first wife, and two children with her. 
Niels Christensen is age 27, working at the residence of his brother-in-law Kield Nielsen, a dairy manager on the Knabstrup [modern spelling] estate, which is to the west in neighboring Holbæk Amt.
Karen Christensdatter has no age given, but she is married to this same indicated Kield Nielsen Hvalsøe.

wgd: Lars Nielsen gmd i Kidserup/ / Morten Mogensen gmd i N.Hvalsoe  guard: Christopher Sonnesen hmd i N.Hvalsoe
"wgd" stands for "wife's guardian", which in Danish is "laugværge/lavværge". In a probate, which is a legal proceeding, the women and underaged children are to have their interests in the inheritance represented by an adult male.  For the widow, this male is called the lavværge. For a married woman, it is her husband.  For the underaged children, he is called the formynder.
In this case, there are two lavæerger because Lars Nielsen, gaardmand i Kisserup [modern spelling – a neighboring parish] is indicated to be such in the first probate, and Morten Mogensen is indicated to be such in the second probate.  Christopher Sonnesen represents the under-aged Bodil in both.
The lavværge and formynder were often relatives of the people they were representing, but not always.

The relationship with Christopher Sonnesen is unknown.  He (or his wife) might have been a relative of some sort, or just a local friend from the same village; it doesn't say.

The identification of the son-in-law  (husband to daughter Karen) is a little confusing.  He is identified as "Hollænder Sr. Hvalsøe paa Knapstrup" [dairy manager Mister Hvalsøe at Knabstrup estate] in the first probate.  In the second, when referring to son Niels, it indicates that Niels is working for "sin svoger Hollænderen Sr. Kield Nielsen paa Knabstrup" [his brother-in-law dairy manager Mister Kield Nielsen at Knabstrup estate] and that Karen is married to the "bemte. Kield Nielsen" [aforementioned].

Looking at the 1787 census helps clear this up:

holbaek, Merløse, Sønder Jernløse, Knabstrup Gaard, , 73, FT-1787, C0149
Kield Hvalsøe   34    Gift   Huusbonde   Hollænderie Forpagter   
Karen Christensdatter   25    Gift   Madmoder      
Maren Hvalsøe   6    Ugift   Deres Børn      
Ole Hvalsøe   3    Ugift   Deres Børn      
Anne Kirstine Hvalsøe   26    Ugift   Mandens Søster      
Niels Christensen   23    Ugift   Tienestefolk   Kalvekudsk   
Jens Jensen   30    Ugift   Tienestefolk   Røgter   
Sara Andersdatter   27    Ugift   Tienestefolk   Malkepige   
Kirsten Nielsdatter   27    Ugift   Tienestefolk   Ligeledes   
Maren Larsdatter   27    Ugift   Tienestefolk   Ligeledes   
Maren Andersdatter   22    Ugift   Tienestefolk   Ligeledes   
Anne Hansdatter   19    Ugift   Tienestefolk   Ligeledes   
Kirsten Andreasdatter   17    Ugift   Tienestefolk   Ligeledes   
Kirsten Hansdatter   13    Ugift   Tienestefolk   Ligeledes   

This is at Knabstrup estate manor farm in Sønder Jernløse parish of Holbæk amt.  It is about 25 km west of Nørre Hvalsø.
Apparently his patronym is "Nielsen", as given in the second probate, but he is using a byname (tilnavn) of Hvalsøe, possibly because he originally came from Hvalsø parish, like his wife.  And the fact that he is identified in the probates as "Sr." (the French title "seigneur") means that although he was not necessarily nobility, he was considered a "cut above" the regular townspeople and farmers.  The census indicates "Hollænderie Forpagter" which means that he was contracted to manage the estate's dairy.  It is interesting to note that this census identifies Anne as Kield's sister, but does not identify Niels has Karen's brother.

"Hollænder" literally means "Dutchman", but if you look in the Danish historical dictionary, you see that it was used in past centuries to indicate someone that manages a dairy.

David Peterson

[Mike Jones]

Thank you again David for all your help with this.

Regards
Mike