Looking for parents of Lars Hansen b. 30 May 1818

[Lynn Jespersen Warfield]

Looking for the parents of Lars Hansen b 30 May 1818 in Naestelso, Hammer, Praesto opslag 10.  I believe his parents are Hans Pedersen and Maria Andersdatter.  I cannot find a marriage record or birth records for them.  As always any help is very much appreciated!

I am also looking for the parents of Lars Hansens wife who is Ane Kirstine Hansdatter b 5 Oct. 1824.  Lars and Ane were married 27 February 1846 - Ronneback, Hammer, Praesto, opslag 71.

Thank you,
Lynn Jespersen Warfield

[Ralph Rasmussen]

I read the births as:

#38 [born] 1818 den 30 Maij  Lars Hansen [baptized] Hiemmedøbt den 2en Junij. Daaben confirmeret i Kirken d 26 Juli
Hans Pedersen og Kirsten Maria Anders Datter Huusfolk i Bunderup
[witness/sponsors] baaren af Pigen Cathrine Hans Datter i Nestelsø, Fadderne Peder Nielsen og Peder Andersen, Gaardmænd i Bunderup og Hans Larsen Gaardmand i Fensmark
[cross reference/index page] Folio 148

[same book, opslag 73] 104 1824 d: 5e October, Anne Kirstine Hans Datter, hiemmedøbt 6e October
Daab confirmeret i Kirken d 5 December
Hans Hansen og Hustru Mariane Peders Datter ???folk i Bunderup
baaren af Jens Nielsens Hustrue Ane i Bunderup, fadderne Knud Jensen og Peder Nielsen, Gaardmænd i Bunderup og Peder Jensen ibid
Folio 211

[Ralph Rasmussen]

A search for Mariane Pedersdatter in 1834 comes up empty, suggesting that she has died between 1824 and 1834 at Nestelsø.  Her death record would give her age, and a rough estimate of her marriage year.

Please indicate both the fiche 'opslag' number and the years of the parish records, not merely the event date, as the years of the parish records often enough overlap.

[Lynn Jespersen Warfield]

Thank you Ralph!  I searched the church records from 1815-1835 and I did indeed find the death record for Mariane Pedersdatter on page 257.  She was 38 years old. 

[David Peterson]

Lynn:

On Lars' side..... What do you already know about parents Hans Pedersen and Maria Andersdatter?  Do you have the info from subsequent censuses and their deaths?  What about siblings to Lars?  I started looking at this and I am coming across unexpected ages for the parents, in particular for Maria, being outside the usual child-bearing age...

David Peterson

[Ralph Rasmussen]

I wonder what the original census says.  Hans and Marie (versus Kirsten Marie) had daughters Karen in 1801 and Mette in 1807.  The latter's birth is noted in 1778-1809, opslag 40, and confirmation 1815-1835, opslag 143 #8. 

In my attempt to comb through both Rønnebek and Nestelsø records for a Hans Pedersen marriage has come up dry.

[David Peterson]

Ralph:

At first reading, I overlooked how you transcribed the 1818 christening with the mother as "Kirsten Maria".  I think it is just "hustru Maria"....   (compare with other renditions of "hustru" in nearby entires)

I am formulating the hypothesis that there were TWO men named Hans Pedersen in this period living in Bunderup in Næstelsø sogn.  One is a gaardmand, 48 years old in the 1801 census, wife Else Christensdatter (and 6 kids at the time).  The other is a huusmand married to Maria Andersdatter.  The child Karen christened in 1801 (ops. 30) is born to a Gmd.  And the child Mette in 1807 (ops. 40) is born to a huusmd.  I don't see the mothers identified in either case.

If you continue on with Hans and Maria, they are always identified as "huusfolk".   I think that at this point (after Karen in 1801), the first Hans Pedersen stops having children (and maybe even leaves the parish).  Hans and Maria were not yet there to show up in the 1801 census....  that is my theory.

David Peterson

[Lynn Jespersen Warfield]

David,
On Lars side I only know that Hans Pedersen and Maria Andersdatter are his parents.  Other than that I know nothing...
As far as the transcribing of Lars Hansen birth, I also thought that the mothers name was Maria...
Thanks,
Lynn

[John Wrenholt]

Can someone take a look at the May 19, 1805 record in 1768-1814 Herlufsholm, Oster Flakkebjerg, Søro ops 133?  Could it be the marriage record we're seeking?

[Lynn Jespersen Warfield]

In continuing my search I have found a Census from 1834 Opslag 8 Naestelso, Hammer, Praesto which shows a Maria Andersdatter age 66  widow and 3 children Peter 19, Lars 15, Kirsten 12.  I just not sure as Maria is quite old to be having such young children...and also having Karen in 1801 and Mette in 1807 as David has mentioned.. Could she be one and the same?  Having children earlier and then again 13 years later?  I am now truly confused....
Lynn
         

[David Peterson]

Yes, John, I would say that it is!
1805, d. 19 Maj Tillyst for Enkemand Hans Pedersen fra Bonderup Næstelsø og Pige Maria Anders Dat. Lille Næstved ... with sponsors Frantz Pedersen and Knud Jensen.  If I read it right, they didn't marry until 22 Nov.

I must admit that in the back of my mind I had also considered there was a possibility that the "first Hans" married to Else and the "second Hans" married to Maria were the same man and that the first wife Else died.  But I thought it less likely because of the ages....

However, this is born out by the death entries in Næstelsø sogn 178-1809 opslag 79.
First the daughter Karen, born in 1801 is buried in early 1804.
Then in 1805:
d. 9 April blev Gaardmand Hans Pedersens hustrue i Bunderup 48 Aar begravet.

She is not named there, but would seem to be the Else Nielsdatter identified in the previous census.
(Sorry, I mis-wrote Christensdatter earlier!)

praestoe, Hammer, Næstelsø, Bunderup Bye, -, 2, FT-1801, C1095
Navn:    Alder:    Civilstand:      Stilling i husstanden:      Erhverv:      Fødested:
Hans Pedersen   48    Gift   Huusbonde   Bonde og gaardbeboere   
Else Nielsdatter   42    Gift   Hans kone      
Niels Hansen   14    Ugift   Deres børn      
Christen Hansen   6    Ugift   Deres børn      
Maren Hansdatter   21    Ugift   Deres børn      
Else Hansdatter   11    Ugift   Deres børn      
Chatrine Hansdatter   8    Ugift   Deres børn      
Kirsten Hansdatter   4    Ugift   Deres børn      
Hans Villumsen   74    Gift   Mand   Fattige og nyder almisse   
Johanne Pedersdatter   70    Gift   Hans kone

It seems that Hans "wasted little time" in getting re-engaged.
As Lynn points out for the later entries for Maria, the ages are bothersome.  However, it seems in this place and period the often-inaccurate census ages are more so than usual.  If we allow for a good amount of error, and that they were somewhat exceptional in their fertility, then it is certainly possible.  Maria's first child is Mette in 1807 and then she continues regularly through 1821.  That is not particularly unusual.
I am also bothered by the fact that Hans seems to have been "down-graded" from a gårdmand to a husmand.....

Lynn: there is quite a lot more that can garnered from the census in the DDD, plus the accompanying church book entires, but it is late and I will have to copy them later.

David Peterson

[Ralph Rasmussen]

I may be covering the same ground as David.  I did find Hans Pedersen of Bunderup buried in 1830, opslag 228 of 1815-1835, aged 72.  By that point he might be a 'husmand', but he is receiving assistance.

[John Wrenholt]

I think this is Hans Pedersen in 1787. 

Præstø, Hammer, Toksværd, Giöstrup Bÿe, , husmænd, 21, FT-1787
Hans Pedersen   27   Gift   husbonde   husmand og nationalsoldat   
Else Niels Datter   27   Gift   hans kone      
Cathrine Hans Datter   6   Ugift   deres børn      
Maren Hans Datter   3   Ugift   deres børn

Daughter Else is born 1783-1813 Toksværd ops 31.
Daughter Chatrine is born 1783-1813 Toksværd ops 36.
Son Christen is born 1778-1809 Næstelsø ops 21.
Daughter Kirsten is born 1778-1809 Næstelsø ops 25.

[David Peterson]

Sorry to all working on this!  I meant to provide my results sooner so that we would avoid going over the same territory.  Your review is welcome, to make sure that I didn't miss something or make a mistake!

In the census (of 1834,1840,1845) we see that Hans Pedersen dies and widow Maria Andersdatter continues on as an aftægtskone, initially with the youngest children:

praestoe, Hammer, Næstelsø, Bunderup Bye, et Huus, 46, FT-1834, C5335
Navn:  Alder:  Civilstand:  Stilling i husstanden:  Erhverv:  Fødested:
Maria Andersdatter 66  Enke  Inderste nyder Aftægt
Peder Hansen 19  Ugift  hendes Børn
Lars Hansen 15  Ugift  hendes Børn
Kirsten Hansdatter 12  Ugift  hendes Børn

praestoe, Hammer, Næstelsø, Bunderup, 1 Huus, 127, FT-1840, C5868
Navn:  Alder:  Civilstand:  Stilling i husstanden:  Erhverv:  Fødested:
Maria Andersdatter 70  Enke  Aftægtskone

praestoe, Hammer, Næstelsø, Bonderup by, et huus, 26, FT-1845, B5182
Navn:  Alder:  Civilstand:  Stilling i husstanden:  Erhverv:  Fødested:
Peder Jørgensen 47  Gift  huusmand, daglaier Kjøng
Sophie Larsdatter 57  Gift  hans kone Wordingb.
Karen Marie Nielsdatter 8  -  deres barn Næstved
Marie Andersdatter 79  Enke(mand)  haver aftægt Herlufsh.

As Ralph has indicated, there is a death entry for Hans in 1830 (ops 228) where he is identified as an "almisselem", a "welfare recipient".  This continues a bothersome trend if he was once a gårdmand, then a husmand and finally on welfare.  Another thing that is bothersome is the status of his widow. I had always understood that aftægt had indicated that a couple or surviving spouse gave up their house/farm tenancy to someone else in return for being maintained on that property while still alive (usually, but not always, it is a relative who takes over the property.) It seems odd that she continues on for another 17 years as an aftægtskone when he was destitute at death.  Perhaps some investigation into land records and/or probate is necessary to resolve that question and make sure that we indeed have the right couple.

If he was really 72 at death in 1830, he should have be 43 in the census of 1801, not 48.

Maria's death entry is in 1847 (ops 131) where she is identified as Hans Pedersen's enke, an aftægtsenke and dying of "vattersot" (dropsy) at age 72.

This continues a set of "erratic" ages for Maria:
If she is the mother of Kirsten in 1821 (which the church books says she is) then her age in 1821, according to the various census ages is:

66 in 1834 = 53 in 1821
70 in 1840 = 51 in 1821
79 in 1845 = 55 in 1821
72 in 1847 = 46 in 1821

If she is the youngest age there, she is not impossibly old to have a child....  and I think that of all of the ages, that is probably closest to her "real" age.  Especially when you start looking for Maria herself in earlier years and her birth.
Fortunately, she is in the 1845 census, which gives her birth parish of Herlufsholm.  This is compatible with the marriage that was found in 1805 and will be helpful in finding her birth family.

The entries for the children after Mette in 1807:

1810 (ops 3) Peder
1813 (ops 25) Peder dies
1815  (ops 1) Peder
1818 (ops 10) Lars
1821 (ops 68) Kirsten

An interesting thing to note in the 1815 birth of the "second" Peder is that mother appears to be identified not as "Andersdatter" but "Axelsdatter".  This may be significant in later research on her....

David Peterson

[Ralph Rasmussen]

This may speak to 'Akselsdatter':

Soroe, Øster Flakkebjerg, Herlufsholm, Lille Nestved, , 31, FT-1787, B6046
Navn: Alder: Civilstand: Stilling i husstanden: Erhverv: Fødested:
Anders Axelson 50  Gift huusbond dagleier, inderste 
Anna Olsdatter 40  Gift madmoder   
Maria Andersdatter 13  Ugift deres barn   
Mette Andersdatter 6  Ugift deres barn   
Anna Andersdatter 5  Ugift deres barn

I forgot to check for a second Maria, but acccording to the plan for the 1787 census, this actually places her birth in 1775, as having entered her thirteenth year.

[Lynn Jespersen Warfield]

Thank you all for your help...this one has been most confusing....So I still am considering that Maria Andersdatter is in fact Lars Hansen mother, we are just not absolutely sure of her birth year...Will keep searching for more clues..Thanks all