Morton Madzen Piil's third wife (1719, Allerslev)?

[Kerry Larson]

According to https://forum.slaegt.dk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=153802.0;attach=35994, Morton Madzen Piil's [6877] third wife was Karen Larsdatter [41202].  His second wife died in Jun 1719, and the first child with his third wife was born in Jul 1720 (Lauritz, 2nd from bottom on left: http://ao.salldata.dk/vis1.php?bsid=147935&side=193&height=1208).  I found a betrothal or marriage record for Morton Piil in 1719, but it doesn't appear that the wife's name was Karen Larsdatter:  https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QSQ-G94W-FWW5?i=150&cc=2078555&cat=430278, 3rd line on left.  What does this record say?  Thanks.

[Linda Michelle Thérèse de Bodt Rosenland]

My vision is not great but it almost looks like it is referring to her father Lauritz (Lars) in the betrothal without mentioning her name.

[Kerry Larson]

Thanks Linda.  I'm sure it's not your vision, just the difficult writing.  The name of his wife I believe comes from her burial record:  http://ao.salldata.dk/vis1.php?bsid=147936&side=236&height=1208 (mid-left).    If that is her father's name in the betrothal record, that seems strange but could be very helpful in jumping another generation.

[Lisa Petersen]

The record you're referring to is the first 4 lines on the left side of the image, a betrothal with sureties:

Fastlaunß Söndag blef Trolofvet Jörgen Jenssøn
dragon, och Mette Nielsdaatter af Allerslof
Forlof. Morten Piil och Lauritz Grif.  Item Jenß Nielson
             och Michel Pederssen

Morten Piil, Lauritz Grif, Jens Nielsen and Michel Pedersen are sureties for the marriage of Jørgen Jensen and Mette Nielsdatter.

Someone will correct my mistakes.   

Hope that helps.

Lisa P.

[Kerry Larson]

Thank you for correcting "my" mistake Lisa!  I was off on a wild tangent apparently.  I think I've actually found the correct marriage this time thanks to it being indexed on MyHeritage:  https://www.myheritage.com/research/record-10455-22379752-S/karen-larsdaatter-in-denmark-church-records.  Looks like Morten Madsen of Allerslev married Karen Larsdatter in Skibinge, Bårse, Præstø on 15 Oct 1719 (9 months before the birth of their first child):  https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L94W-TQCB?i=479&cc=2078555&cat=421515 (lower left).  A transcription would be greatly appreciated.

Edit:  A different copy of the record - http://ao.salldata.dk/vis1.php?bsid=205624&side=74

[Lars Skovvang Larsen]

Transcription:

"Ao 1719 D 10 Julii begiærte Morten Mads: af Allesløv, at komme I Egteskab med Karen Larsdaatter af Skibinge, for hvil Egteskab at intit paa ? af Siderne finder?, derfor caverer Jørgen Christophersen og Peder Jensen begge Boemænd af Skibinge som de her hos bekrefter.
D 12 Julii trolovit.
           I C S                   PH S
Jørgen Christophersøns navn    Peder Jensens navn
D ? October copulerit"

The "trolovelse" on 12th of July and "copulation" in October - can`t read the date.

I don´t have any knowledge of the two "boemænd" / farmers Jørgen Christophersen and Peder Jensen both in Skibbinge.

Looking for hints of relatives. Morten Madsen Piils and Karen Larsdatters 3 sons baptisms in Allerslev:

Laurits, 1720:
https://arkivalieronline.rigsarkivet.dk/da/billedviser?bsid=147935#147935,24425614 - ops. 193:
"Dom: 6. post Trinit. blef Morten Piils Søn døbt, kaldet Lauridz. Hans Hendrichs Hustrui i Allersløf ham,
Testes Michel Schreder af Allersløf, Rasmus Enevold søn af Sandvig, Jens Rasmussens Hustrui af Tiørnehovet, Hans Nielsens Hustrui ibd og Hans Tomesens Hustrue sammestedz."
Note Rasmus Enevoldsen in Sandvig (Mern parish). He is my ancestor, but why is he a witness? His wife (my ancestral mother) died in 1702, and I´m pretty shure he married again - but with whom? Could it be  with one rlated to either Morten Madsen or Karen Larsdatter?

Rasmus, 1722:
https://arkivalieronline.rigsarkivet.dk/da/billedviser?bsid=147935#147935,24425618 - ops. 197:
"Dom: Invoc: døbt Morten Piils Rasmus i Allersløf. Hans Hendrichs Hustrue i Allersløf bar Ham.
Testes Morten Jørgensøn i Skibinge, Hans Lauritzen og Peder Degn ibd: Zidzel Hiortes i Allersløf, och Degnens pige ved nafn Bothild samestedz."
Note the 3 men from Skibbinge Morten Jørgensen, Hans Lauritsen and Peder Degn. I don´t know any of them.

Hans, 1724:
https://arkivalieronline.rigsarkivet.dk/da/billedviser?bsid=147935#147935,24425627 - ops. 206:
"Dom: 16 post Trinit. Morten Piils Hans i Allersløf, Peder Jensens Hustrui i Skibinge bar ham.
Testes. Johan Giertzen Smed i Alleslef, Anders Jacobsen ibd, Peiter Friderichs Hustrie i Allesløf, Madz ?s Hustru samme stedz, Præste Enchens Pige ibd."
Note the godmother Peder Jensens wife i Skibbinge. I don´t know Peder Jensen nor his wife - but, could she be a sister of Karen Larsdatter? That could further explain why Peder Jensen in Skibbinge was "forlover" i 1719.

[Kerry Larson]

Thanks very much Lars for all the extra detail and commentary.  Do you know the meaning of Boemænd/Bohemian in this context?  Those appear to be Scandinavian names.  Is Lars and Lauritz equivalent in Danish like Ole and Oluf?

[Lars Skovvang Larsen]

Boemand/Bomand and in plural Boemænd/Bomænd.
Of bo and man. Bo - to live. A man living permanently (on af farm) in one place. As oposed to men having to search their livelihood here and there.

Almost the same af gaardmand / gårdmand.

-

And yes, Lars and Laurits are identical names as are Ole and Oluf.
There are many vaiations of Lars: Laurits, Lauridz, Laurs, Laus, Lau, Lafrens - in English Lawrence, Italian Lorenzo, German Lorentz.

[Kerry Larson]

Oh... Boemænd translated as Bohemians (i.e. people from Bohemia or acting in that manner). Interesting that in Danish it means living in one place as one of the definitions in english is living as a vagabond.  I learn something new here all the time. 

Since Laurits and Lars are equivalent, I assume that means that it's possible for Karen Larsdatter to be a sibling of Hans Lauritsen or others of that patronym?  Thanks for all your help Lars.

[Lars Skovvang Larsen]

Yes, at Larsen and a Lauritsdatter can very well be siblings.

The man with the feather - pen - decided the spelling. There were no fixed spelling.
There is a tendency in the spelling; the more educated a man was, the more sophistcated his spelling.
The common name Lars/Laurs/Laus ended in the more sophistcated Laurits.
Ole/Olle became Oluf.
Peder/Per/Pêr became Peter/Petter/Peiter/Petrus.
Christen/Kresten/Kristen became Christian.
Morten became Martin/Martinus
Frederik - Friderich (German sounding spelling is alway better!)
Anders - Andreas/Andres
Similar with girls names:
Ane became Anne/Anna
Boel/Bohl becam Bodil/Bothilde
Malene - Magdalene/Magdalena
Birthe/Berthe - Birgitte
Ludze/Luzie/Louise/Lovise.
Kirsten/Kirstine/Christine/Christiane
And the more K´s you could substíture with Ch the better! Kristen/Christen, Karen/Charen.


My grandparents on my fathers side always - when they were faith to their mother tongue - call a man Peder for [Pæer] pronounced as the the fruit "pear" in English.
My Grandfather Lars Peter would be called [Las Pedder].